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« The Gutenberg solution | Main | Ripping »

Jun 19, 2012

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Andrew Brod

I'm so old that I remember when the conservative movement didn't embrace stupidity.

sittinginthemiddle.

Andrew, you are so quick with your wit, one could only guess how impressed you make yourself.

justcorbly

Sounds par for the course for people who just finished legislating the end of rising sea levels. Speaking of stupid.

The thing about conspiracy whackos -- which now seems to include an otherwise humdrum Charlotte politico with a fetish for running for governor -- is that they don't care when you tell them there's no evidence for one or another of their brain fevers. They just figure the Baddies hid the evidence. Never seen a UN black helicopter? That's because there all hiding inside Pilot Mountain.

justcorbly

"There"?? No, "they're". Fumes from my oh-so-sustainable compost pile must be making me dizzy.

Ian McDowell

sittinginthemiddle, I'm willing to buy you a beer or coffee as the price for finding out if you're as verbally abusive to people face-to-face. I'm off on Fridays and Saturdays, all day. Name the downtown establishment of your choice. ianmcd@mindspring.com

cheripickr

Did sitting call somebody stupid or something? Or do something even worse, like reacting to someone else doing it?

Thomas

Here's the real thing for anyone who wants to learn the (not so) ugly truth.

X-Democrip & RepubBlood Gang member

Conspiracies don't exist and never will win the day that we are simply tools and idiots of this thinking..* Group think program mind set here at this site with Ed being the chief anti-conspiracy buff

Right boys, the bilderbery group is simply a fun group who loves to help humanity with Wars..

http://tarpley.net/2012/06/05/bilderberg-tool-ron-paul-his-austrian-plan-for-austerity-and-genocide-against-50-million-americans/

Spag

Where and when did McCrory back a conspiracy theory?

Stating his opposition to Article 21 isn't the same thing as endorsing a conspiracy theory.

I expect that in the interest of accuracy, you will correct your assertion.

Thomas

I just searched the NCGOP website to read the resolution opposing Agenda 21. I couldn't find a mention of Agenda 21. Anyone know where it is available?

Andrew Brod

Yes, it's true that all McCrory tweeted was that he was proud to oppose Agenda 21. Twitter obviously doesn't allow lengthy explanations. However, it's not like there are numerous reasons to oppose a UN initiative that would have little or no tangible effect on the state of North Carolina. The state GOP opposed it because of a conspiracy theory and McCrory proudly supports that. It's hardly inaccurate to connect the one remaining pair of dots.

If we're really interested in accuracy, we should ask McCrory why he opposes Agenda 21. Let him prove Spag right.

Andrew Brod

Correction: That should read, "The state GOP opposed it because of a conspiracy theory and a big steaming pile of stupidity, and McCrory proudly supports that."

Some things need to be said twice.

Spag

"However, it's not like there are numerous reasons to oppose a UN initiative that would have little or no tangible effect on the state of North Carolina."

Okay, so that's the new standard. Believe what I believe otherwise you believe in conspiracies.

And everybody who disagrees with Andrew Brod is stupid. I think we've heard that before.

Perhaps you should read the resolution first and then point out the conspiracy.

Thanks for the dumb conversation.

Andrew Brod

Cute, except that I wasn't the one who invented the conspiracy theory about Agenda 21. The GOP did.

And yeah, that's pretty stupid.

Andrew Brod

Sustainability "is the efforts of the UN to circumvent our constitution to have the government more and more in control of people," Pittman said. "It's not about maintaining a resource. It's about getting the people more under the control of the government."

Yeah, no conspiracy theory here.

Thomas

Spag - Can you point me to somewhere online I can read the resolution? I couldn't find it on ncgop.org.

Ed Cone

Fit that guy for a blue helmet!

I'm guessing he still believes the sensible things he said for years, and that coming out in opposition to a non-existent threat is just pandering.

bubba

"Sustainability 'is the efforts of the UN to circumvent our constitution to have the government more and more in control of people,' Pittman said. 'It's not about maintaining a resource. It's about getting the people more under the control of the government.' "

So in your usually wrong but never in doubt opinion, there is no rational basis for anyone to be concerned in the least over the provisions contained in the mindset of the Agenda 21 composers?

No, I guess not.

You, being the consummate central planner, collectivist and "backward-is-forward" thinker that you are, must salivate at the thought of attaining the power and control to implement all of your bizarre social and economic policies and dangerous theories that Agenda 21 would make available to you.

Ed Cone

I would not want to attacked by a vampire, but as vampires are not real I don't want my government wasting time debating the looming vampire threat, and I would think less of a candidate who pandered to people who think True Blood is a documentary.

bubba

"....but as vampires are not real....."

Collectivists figuratively suck the lifeblood out of society. That IS real.

sittinginthemiddle.

"sittinginthemiddle, I'm willing to buy you a beer or coffee as the price for finding out if you're as verbally abusive to people face-to-face. I'm off on Fridays and Saturdays, all day. Name the downtown establishment of your choice."- Ian

Ian, I appreciate your interest in meeting with me so you may ascertain my ability to communicate effectively. I understand that I come across a little harsh sometimes, that is beause I believe in the honest truth in any situation. I am not of the politically correct stripe, nor the follow the herd mentality. If you find that offensive, I could care less. I do not drink beer or coffee and I certainly would not meet with a perfect stranger who I had an online conversation with.
Let alone in the cesspool of downtown Greensboro.

Spag

"coming out in opposition to a non-existent threat is just pandering."

So are you walking back the accusation that McCrory "backs" a conspiracy theory ?

I read the resolution but must have missed the conspiracy portion. All I was able to take from it was that the North Carolina GOP thinks Agenda 21 is a bad idea. The Alabama legislature concluded the same thing when they passed a resolution against Agenda 21.

I admit that I don't know much about it, but the claim that opposition requires belief in a conspiracy rings false.

Ed Cone

Pat said he was proud to support the resolution against Agenda 21.

Obviously that resolution is about the alleged conspiracy to mask a UN takeover of local government as sustainable development.

So, yes, he publicly backed the conspiracy theory.

I just don't think he meant it. I mean, I'm sure he opposes a UN takeover of local government, but I strongly doubt he really thinks such a thing is in the works. For that matter, I doubt that in his heart he supported Amendment One. That's what makes his public statements on these issues pandering.

I expect more from a nice guy from Guilford County.

It would be entertaining to watch someone ask him about this.

bubba

"So, yes, he publicly backed the conspiracy theory."

Even in the most tortured application of logic can that be said to be an accurate assessment.

It's apparent you've been reduced to making absurd stretches in order to validate a talking point.

How embarrassing that must be for you.

Spag

"Obviously that resolution is about the alleged conspiracy to mask a UN takeover of local government as sustainable development."

So what you are saying is that one can only support Agenda 21, otherwise they subscribe to a conspiracy theory?

Or maybe they just don't like what Agenda 21 actually proposes. Agenda 21 does in fact make proposals about local governments. Are there no legitimate reasons to oppose those proposals without believing in a conspiracy? Did you read the resolution? If so, can you tell me which parts are policy differences and which parts are untrue statements that refer to a conspiracy ? I read it, and I agreed with a lot (but not all) of it. I don't believe it's a conspiracy, just another potentially bad proposal from the UN.

I remember not too long ago when all of those people including you banded together in opposition to the great Amendment One conspiracy and made all kinds of outrageous claims. I'll bet even Walter Dalton bought that conspiracy theory.

There are those who characterize Agenda 21 as a conspiracy, and then there are those who just don't like what it does. You claimed that McCrory endorsed a conspiracy merely for signing on to opposition. After all of this time, can you still never admit you are wrong about anything ?

Steve Harrison

"I read the resolution but must have missed the conspiracy portion."

Put on your critical thinking helmet, Sam. You can't very well achieve "global political control" or have something "covertly pushed into local communities throughout the United States of America" unless some powerful people conspire to make those things happen. Ergo, a conspiracy.

And if that's not scary enough, the NC GOP throws in "socialist or communist redistribution of wealth policies" to really ratchet up the fear.

They left out the part about the wolf eating Little Red Riding Hood's grandmother, but it's still a fairytale.

bubba

"They left out the part about the wolf eating Little Red Riding Hood's grandmother, but it's still a fairytale."

Have you read any of the actual provisions of Agenda 21?

I'll leave just one for you to mull over.

From Section 1, Chapter 4:

"Poverty and environmental degradation are closely interrelated. While poverty results in
environmental stress, the major cause of global environmental deterioration is an unsustainable pattern of consumption and production, particularly in the industrialized countries, which aggravates poverty and imbalances.

Achieving sustainable development will require efficiency in production and changes in consumption in order to optimize resource use and minimize the creation of waste. This will require reorienting patterns of development in industrial societies which have been copied in much of the developing world. Proposals in Agenda 21 call for greater attention to issues around consumption and for new national policies to encourage the shift to sustainable consumption patterns. Other chapters of Agenda 21 address related issues such as energy, transportation, wastes,economic instruments and the transfer of environmentally sound technology."

On the other hand, perhaps reading that doesn't raise a huge red flag for you.

Spag

Bubba, the important thing isn't what it really says but what you want people to think it says. We went through this same charade the other day when Ed passed on the false idea that a legislator from Michigan was banned from speaking for using the word "vagina". That isn't what happened when one examined the facts, but who cares, right ?

The UN is a global organization and it made recommendations for a global policy right down to the localities. Some people at the local level think that's a good idea. Some don't. I guess pointing this out and opposing it makes one a conspiracy theorist. I suppose if someone like Zack Matheny were to propose that Greensboro adopt some of the Agenda 21 ideas, that would make him a powerful person engaged in a conspiracy. Or maybe that would just make him a local guy who thinks the proposals are a good idea. Of course, anyone who disagrees would ipso facto be a conspiracy theorist according to Ed et al.

Those who opposed health care must be conspiracy theorists, too. You know, a big idea with far reaching ramifications pushed by government with all kinds of small details in the fine print with a socialist underpinning.

And there are those who opposed the Amendment One conspiracy to impose fundamental Christianity on the rest of the country. Really, they did. Go check it out. In fact, I think the Democratic candidate for governor endorsed that conspiracy.

The panic mode continues and it's really starting to get ridiculous out there.

Steve Harrison

Nope. No red flags, bubba.

With over 7 billion people on this planet, moving forward without implementing a smart, long-term approach to resource usage would be a red-flag-raiser, though.

cheripickr

Don't be silly Sam. Anyone who has been writing so prolifically on a variety of topics every day for 10 years must have been wrong dozens of times and I'm sure there are numerous instances of admitting it sprinkled throughout these pages.

bubba

"Nope. No red flags, bubba."

Thank God your attitude isn't official policy-yet.

Billy Jones

Check out a real international conspiracy, no theory needed.

bubba

"Bubba, the important thing isn't what it really says but what you want people to think it says....'

Then the UN must have been highly successful in getting certain people to think it says what it says.

Why else has caused us to be blanketed with wondrous ideas like "Sustainable Development"...."Smart Growth"..."Transit Oriented Development"....."Social Justice" these last few decades by those of a certain political/social/economic persuasion?


Sean

but of course this pre-9/11 manifesto for US global "leadership" via a military build-up wasn't conspiratory at all...

polifrog

Spag was around here before my time, so I suppose this observation is old hat but the return of Spag certainly has raised the bar of debate around here.

Spag

I don't plan on staying around much longer frog, because I think the level debate is actually pretty poor. Nobody gives straight answers, anyone who disagrees with Andrew is "stupid", Ed drops bombs and then disappears when called on to defend his propositions, hypocrisy is rationalized, and detractors are personally attacked. In other words, it's just like it always has been. Forget intelligent debate, this is designed to be an echo chamber not a forum for honest discussion.

Andrew Brod

Spag, I've clearly hurt your feelings, because you keep bringing up the canard about me thinking that anyone who disagrees with me is stupid. I don't think that--never have. All I've said here is that the GOP opposition to Agenda 21 as some sort of threat to the state of North Carolina is pretty darned stupid. If you feel that that statement implies something about you, I can't help that.

So yeah, bring on the intelligent debate. But please check your tinfoil hats at the door.

Andrew Brod

Spag says he's interested in accuracy and honest debate. Works for me. So why doesn't someone ask McCrory why he's "proud" to oppose Agenda 21? If he's got a reason that isn't stupid, I'd like to know. If he opposes it for reasons that have nothing to do with conspiracy theories cited by his fellow Repubs, I'd like to hear them.

But as it stands, we have the GOP candidate for NC governor checking out the tinfoil hats to see which ones might fit him. I don't doubt that he's doing it to pander, not out of sincere agreement with the tinfoilers. But it'd be good to know.

Thomas

Bubba - In your 8:48 post, it looks like the close quote is in the wrong place. It's hard to tell where the quote ends and the editorial begins.

Spag

I love it when people like Andrew accuse the opposition of wearing tin foil hats, being extremists, etc even as liberals continue to lose elections. One would think that if they had any sense of self-awareness they might realize that they are the ones who are out of the mainstream with the weird ideas that most people reject.

Andrew Brod

Ah, so we're changing the subject. Fair enough.

Of course it remains to be seen if the tinfoil behavior will be rewarded the next time around. Maybe it will. On the other hand, the GOP took over the General Assembly thanks to the worst economy in generations. Incumbents nearly always get tossed out of office in times like that. But that can also boomerang if the economy doesn't improve before the new group is up for reelection.

Finally, I don't believe everyone in "the opposition" is a tinfoiler. But it's only fair to point out those who are.

Sean

having ideas that don't win elections has nothing to do with believing that the UN is going to change our lives as we know it in a, to quote charles barkley, "turrible" way. if you're saying that the GOP panders to the base fears in people in order to win elections, well duh, of course they do.

Andrew Brod

The anti-Foxworthy: "If you believe the UN is coming to your town to 'get the people more under the control of the government,' then...

...you might be a tinfoiler."

bubba

"Bubba - In your 8:48 post, it looks like the close quote is in the wrong place."

It's in the right place. It comes directly from the UN press summary of Agenda 21.

bubba

"All I've said here is that the GOP opposition to Agenda 21 as some sort of threat to the state of North Carolina is pretty darned stupid."

You're right, Arnold. There's been no effort at all to codify the bits and pieces of what's been proposed in Agenda 21.

Forget the "global warming" nonsense, forget the "fairness" and the "share the wealth" meme so frequently from the current occupiers of the White House, forget TOD, forget Smart Growth, forget all the light rail/urban transit disasters, forget EPA classifying CO2 as a pollutant, forget the other radical environmental initiatives, and forget all the other Agenda 21 provisions that bureaucrats, "progressives" and central planners like you are constantly proposing.

It's just a coincidence that all those things are taking place concurrently, isn't it?

Thomas

So it IS a conspiracy?

Spag

Notice that neither Andrew nor anyone else making the claims about opposition to Agenda 21 actually address the merits by discussing what Agenda 21 actually does/proposes. Apparently, reasonable minds are not allowed to differ.

It's a lot easier to simply say people wear tinfoil hats and are stupid.

Sean

so why don't you explicitly outline your fears, spag? or bubba, instead of quoting paragraphs that can, and will be, interpreted differently by different people, clearly state what you feel agenda 21 is trying to do and why it's beyond negative?

also, i love how "fairness" has become a detrimental white house policy within the current poverty/wage stagnation climate. you're right, tuition isn't high enough. health care should cost an arm, leg AND a tongue. banks should be able to bet the house on dog races when investing our money. fuck the middle class and the poor and any spare change they/we might have.

personal responsibility can only get you so far in this country when the deck is stacked, but it's communist to work on fixing the infrastructure to enable more personal responsibility.

brilliant.

polifrog

The game that the UN plays is one in which it lends legitimacy as well as leadership in the promotion of fairy-tales such as man made global warming (in which every solution is bureaucratic) and the concept of western culpability regarding 3rd world poverty otherwise known as sustainability (in which every solution results in a more limited and bureaucratic America).

There is nothing wrong with rejecting either the offered legitimacy or leadership of the UN regarding these issues. Neither is there anything conspiratorial about it.

What is clear is that only those of a conspiratorial mindset can conceive of a conspiratorial source in the rational rejection of UN antiAmericanism.

Ed Cone

So was McCrory part of the UN infiltration plan back when he was talking up sustainability, or just a dupe of our would-be masters?

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