"I write as a Baptist minister to defend something dear: the separation of church and state and religious liberty."

Dr. H. Stephen Shoemaker, senior minister at Charlotte's Myers Park Baptist Church, writes about his opposition to Amendment One.

Comments

[Fec]

Hilarious. The proponents came out with a litany of Sunday sermons. It seems to have struck a nerve with some local pastors.

[Triad Conservative]

Perhaps I can clear something up.

Some readers might recall that a split developed in the Southern Baptist Convention over a period of time. Many of the liberal churches within that denomination left. They formed and/or joined more liberal Baptist groups such as the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, the American Baptist churches and the Alliance of Baptists.

The churches that are being cited-- including College Park here in Greensboro, Myers Park in Charlotte and First Baptist in Lexington-- fall in this category. The worldview and mindset of these churches and groups I have listed more closely resemble the liberal mainline Protestant churches and denominations. They are not orthodox Christian churches.

By contrast, the vast majority of the Southern Baptist churches that remain are orthodox in character (but probably not all of them).

[prell]

"They are not orthodox churches."

You mean the same fanatical churches that don't believe Catholics are Christian? What an accepting bunch. lolYou.

[Triad Conservative]

It appears that you are quick to stereotype, Prell.

[prell]

"It appears that you are quick to stereotype, Prell."

Wait, what? YOU accusing someone else of stereotyping? Your blog is a treasure trove of YOU stereotyping others. It's only convenient if it fits your small, ignorant, and pathetic worldview.

[Billy Jones]

"They are not orthodox Christian churches."

I'm sure the Greek Orthodox Church-- the oldest Christian church in existence-- considers Baptists to be unorthodox.

Seriously Joe, you and yours act like you invented Christianity and yet you preach the Gospel according to King James of England who was unable to live up to Christian values and forced the Church of England to rewrite the Bible to make it more liberal-- can you not see the comedic irony in what you preach?

[Fec]

The Evil Dr. Guarino is merely applying the litmus test of fascism.

[prell]

Joe has stated on his blog that he is no fan of the "Church of England." They are the worst church. This was sometime before the New Year. Remember, he is in the minority. He is a member of "The Remnants" (Whatever the fuck that insane shit means.). Meanwhile, on Planet Earth, my wife and I just said a prayer that Kirk Cameron's new flick would be shown at the local theaters. Everyone wants to see that shit.

[Triad Conservative]

There is a difference between orthodox churches that adhere to a biblical worldview, and the liberal mainline Protestant churches. Yes, there are shades of differences among the various churches and denominations. But I think this particular distinction is most critical for understanding.

The orthodox churches, for purposes of my discussion, include the eastern Orthodox, the Roman Catholic and the various Protestant churches that adhere to biblical Christianity.

The Baptist churches cited above and the other ministers and churches and denominations that are coming out against the marriage amendment tend not to be orthodox.

[Fec]

Bullshit.

[prell]

From Guarino's soon-to-be deleted blog: 2/9/12: "Actually, I think the pro-gay marriage forces are the bigots, because they are the ones hardened in an unreasonable position. They are the ones seeking to impose an unacceptable vision on the rest of society. They are the forces of darkness. They are the ones trying to achieve the cultural normalization of homosexuality. They are the ones trying to destroy the traditional concept of marriage and the family. Those are some of the same parties who have supported using the courts and changes in the law and in popular culture to spur the dissolution of the family for a period of upwards of 60-70 years."

How's that for tolerance?

[Fec]

Good job on the dumpster diving, Prell. Now, hit the showers.

[prell]

"The forces of darkness." Wow... What a hateful human being.

[axelskater]

Forces of darkness.....very Star Wars.

Here's an idea...True Conservatives should BE AGAINST BIG GOVERNMENT - no matter which side asks for it.
If you don't want the government interfering in your health care and other aspects of your individual liberty, (and I sure don't) you should not want them in the bedroom either.

I am voting against the amendment.

[Fec]

He trips up on the first sentence. There is no pro-gay marriage force. The vehement opposition is in regard to the proscription of civil unions. When you remember that Joe is preaching to the social retards, it all makes sense. They don't now left from right or up from down. All they need is another reason to be afraid, to have their paranoid delusions validated. It's no different than beating on a cripple.

He's a monster.

[prell]

"He's a monster."

That's an understatement.

[Sean]

you guys are going to force joe to resume blogging. i don't think he can handle much more of the truth over here.

the most ardent pro-gay marriage "forces" are gay people... and they're the bigots for wanting the right to receive the same government sponsored incentives as the rest of married society.

just, wow.

[Billy Jones]

"The orthodox churches, for purposes of my discussion, include the eastern Orthodox, the Roman Catholic and the various Protestant churches that adhere to biblical Christianity."

Come on, Joe, are you completely blind to history? The Baptist evolved from the Church of England and teach from a book that the real orthodox churches never used. You follow a book that wasn't written until 1611 and consider yourself orthodox? King James had the Bible rewritten because the previous Bible prevented him from divorcing his wife.

Everything you espouse is a contradiction. Get a therapist.

[Spag]

Axelskater, this Amendment is actually more anti-big government. Those who want to defeat it favor government recognition of same sex marriages or the government establishment of civil unions along with all of the attendant government benefits. In fact, I know some conservatives who oppose A1 simply because they don't want to see the expansion of government benefits.

I agree with you on the privacy of the bedroom et al, but that isn't at issue. I don't see how this issue involves government interfering with individual liberty. You can't go to jail for marrying someone of the same sex, the government just won't recognize it. Since when do conservatives believe that legitimation only exists by virtue of government blessing ?

Just some points to consider. I think the fundamental points in this debate lay elsewhere.

[Triad Conservative]

This thread began with my pointing out simply that some Baptist churches are liberal, and have liberal organizational affiliations. That is a verifiable fact.

It is a peculiarity of recent history that Catholics, biblical Protestants and the eastern Orthodox share a biblical worldview; and in some respects have more in common with each other than they do with the liberal mainline Protestant churches. This is largely a product of the cultural changes of the last 50 years; the impact of judicial activism; and the overall effectiveness of the progressive crowd from the standpoint of changing the legal and cultural environment to undermine and break up the traditional family; and to take tens of millions of unborn lives unjustifiably. The drumbeat for gay marriage is just the latest manifestation.

[Brian]

It just occurred to me, the interesting use of the word "traditional" by Joe to imply "majority." Not all traditions are unanimously adopted and traditions tend to vary based on culture, history, and geography. Anyways, the Constitution isn't the right place for perpetuating traditions. Traditions have much better gatekeepers - churches, families, neighborhoods, etc., than the law.

I'm not saying Joe used it intentionally that way, but I also know these words don't creep into the debate without forethought.

[formerly gt]

best to ignore fec and the gang Joe.

remember, "Never wrestle with a pig—you get dirty and the pig likes it"

[Ed Cone]

In any case, the Constitution is meant to protect the rights of the minority.

Christianity is not monolithic in practice or belief, and conflicts within Christianity are one of its most venerable traditions. Meanwhile, the Constitution guarantees rights for Americans regardless of their religious beliefs.

[Billy Jones]

"The drumbeat for gay marriage is just the latest manifestation."

Funny, hardly no one in North Carolina heard those drums until the right wing wackos dreamed up Amendment 1. You and yours blew it again.

[Sean]

"the overall effectiveness of the progressive crowd from the standpoint of changing the legal and cultural environment to undermine and break up the traditional family"

joe, has someone knocked down your door to wrest away your wife? if so, let me be the first to offer my services to help you find her and punish the SOB who performed such an act.

it really is humorous... i mean, do you get a corsican brother itch to sleep with men when you see gay people interact? is it that tough to just let people be and not apply your god complex to every situation at hand?

[Fec]

Ehe Evil Dr. Guarino doth protest too much, methinks.