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« IFYI | Main | The missionary's position »

Mar 23, 2012

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bubba

"ponbt"="point"

Let's not give the typing nazis a chance to divert attention away from the issue under discussion.

Ed Cone

Race may be tangential to the legal case, although I don't know enough to say so definitively.

Racial stereotypes may have played a role in Zimmerman's decision-making.

And race certainly seems to matter in the efforts to stereotype and demean the dead kid.

All that said, my personal view of this is informed much less by my views on race than by being the father of a 20-year-old son.

A family is grieving a senseless loss, and people are trashing the dead kid for behavior, online and off, that seems harmless and commonplace.

Spag

"And race certainly seems to matter in the efforts to stereotype and demean the dead kid."

You forgot "and in the efforts to exploit his death for political purposes and to stereotype and demean gun owners".

Ed Cone

I'm a white gun owner, and I don't feel the least bit demeaned by questions about Zimmerman's actions, and I'd guess that's true for a lot of gun owners, regardless of race or politics.

This case may provide legit fodder for debating carry laws and stand-your-ground, etc.

Stereotyping the dead kid seems to be a way to avoid that discussion.

Spag

Boy, you have the whole stereotyping thing backwards. You don't think Zimmerman is also being stereotyped and has been from the outset (the racist, white guy- even if he isn't white) ?

We don't know the essential facts yet. The least we can do is be fair to everyone involved.

Ed Cone

Well, at the most I have it halfway, not backwards -- the stereotyping of Trayvon is clearly happening.

Most of what I've seen about Zimmerman has do with his actions, not his ethnicity. His susceptibility to racial stereotypes and its possible role in his actions remain open questions.

Andrew Brod

The people most focused on Zimmerman's race are the conservatives.

And it's kind of interesting. Conservatives have argued for years that racism by non-whites is a huge problem, but for this episode they're using Zimmerman's Hispanic ethnicity as a kind of shield. This can't be about race, because they claim that Zimmmerman isn't white. (Which isn't even necessarily true, but there it is.)

Grant

Her son, Austin, was hysterical. He had been right there, walking the dog, when he heard the cry for help. But then Sake had pulled off the leash. As her son chased the boxer, he had heard the gunshot.

"What if the dog hadn't gotten loose? What if he had tried to help? My son is 13," Brown said. "He looks a lot like Trayvon."

For her son's whole life, Brown said, she has told him: If someone's chasing you, run. "What if it's a kidnapper? Or someone trying to beat or rob you?" she asked.

She stopped walking the dog and shook her head. "But if he runs, does that make him even more suspicious?" Brown wiped her eyes. "What makes someone suspicious? That's what worries me the most."

Account Deleted

How is Zimmerman not white? His father is white, his mother Hispanic. Hispanic has a myriad of subgroups, the largest one of which is white.

If Zimmerman is not white, Italians are not white.

What percent of Anglo-Saxon blood is required for a person to be white these days Sam?

Billy Jones

Bubba asked, "Why has Zimmerman not been charged with ANY crime?"

Cops all over the nation are saying he should have been charged. One of them is in this thread. Only the cops on the scene can tell you why he wasn't charged. And they ain't talking because their asses are in a sling of their own making.

It ain't about race, it ain't about hoodies, it ain't about a teenage drug user-- it's not even about gun rights or the right to defend yourself. It's about one armed coward who followed a kid after being told by the 911 dispatcher not to do so. It's about one wacko that imagined himself to be a police officer. It's about one "man" who deliberately put himself and a teenager into a life and death situation without ever considering or giving a damn about the consequences of his actions.

In my CCW class I was taught you always must be aware of the consequences. Either Zimmerman wasn't aware (criminally insane) or didn't care. CCW is about getting out of life and death situations-- not creating them. Either way, Martin's death was wrong and Zimmerman should be charged.

Ishmael

Everyone should be wary of these gun laws. Don't think you or your family will be spared because of your race - all it takes is a looney-toon with an outsized ego to bring your life as you know it to an end.
Like all forms of oppression, they are promoted by shadier aspects of our society and finally come back to bite us.
Go on. Keep hating people for the color of their skin or the God they worship. Your attitudes will come to create a very different world than what you strive for and we are seeing the effects now.

Account Deleted

That's a good article Grant linked to above.

michele
"It ain't about race, it ain't about hoodies, it ain't about a teenage drug user-- it's not even about gun rights or the right to defend yourself. It's about one armed coward who followed a kid after being told by the 911 dispatcher not to do so. It's about one wacko that imagined himself to be a police officer. It's about one 'man' who deliberately put himself and a teenager into a life and death situation without ever considering or giving a damn about the consequences of his actions."

Amen, Billy.

Agreed, Jeffrey.

Spag

So Andrew and Ed, you haven't read about the New Black Panthers, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, the talking heads in the media arguing and suggesting that Zimmerman was motivated by race ? Your own point about hoodies is steeped in such things, yet all Andrew can muster is "conservatives are focused on Zimmerman's race" and Ed writing that people are focused on Zimmerman's actions not his ethnicity.

Okay....

Doug H

NC Gun law, FYI:

http://www.ncdoj.com/getdoc/32344299-a2a7-4ae5-99fd-9018262f64ac/2007-NC-Firearms-gun-Laws.aspx

Sorry, but I don't know all the HTML stuff.

Andrew Brod

Sure, many liberals are focused on race. I didn't say otherwise. But they're mostly focused on Martin's race.

Andrew Brod

Here's how you do the HTML stuff.

Grant

suggesting that Zimmerman was motivated by race

"Motivated by race" encompasses more than membership in the Nazi Low Riders.

Doug H

Oops. Wrong post:

Thank you!

Spag

They are focused on Martin's race because of Zimmerman's race, Andrew, and vice-versa. Don't insult our intelligence.

Andrew Brod

Actually, Spag, I did the opposite when I assumed you'd understand this. The fact that I was wrong doesn't mean that I was insulting you.

Spag

Stinging comeback. I'm hurt. It still doesn't change the facts on the ground or the abuse of logic.

bubba

"If Zimmerman is not white, Italians are not white."

Why isn't Obama described as a White African?

bubba

"Either way, Martin's death was wrong and Zimmerman should be charged."

Why has "White Hispanic" Zimmerman not been charged with a crime?

Billy Jones

Bubba, "Why has "White Hispanic" Zimmerman not been charged with a crime?"

Makes no difference in my argument.

bubba

"Makes no difference in my argument."

What makes no difference?

The fact that certain hysterics want to make this into a "white on black" hate crime?

Or is it the fact that no indictment has been made?

Grant

"Why has 'White Hispanic' Zimmerman not been charged with a crime?"

Because of the Gun Nut Protection Act, obvs.

bubba

"Because of the Gun Nut Protection Act, obvs."

Yeah, that fits the meme well. Stick with that one, Ace.

Grant

You betcha, Sport.

bubba

And why has "White Hispanic" Zimmerman not been charged?

Oh yeah, it's "...because the state attorney's office headed by Norman Wolfinger determined there wasn't enough evidence to lead to a conviction....."

Anything else of no particular significance you would care to contribute, Ace?

sal leone

The issue here is that this case will cause problems because one party is dead. The damage has been done in the media and any jury will be tainted with their personal belief due to all the information on tv. I dont think that a conviction will come because of the witnesses stating they saw Zimmerman being assaulted right before the shooting. The facts that are important are taking a backrow. The backrow issues are why was he carrying a gun as a watchmen, why did he not stay in his car, what was so odd about the kid that he called 911. The fact is that Zimmerman put himself in the life and death situation and acted negligent and stupid. I think the conviction will come in a federal civil rights trial and not the state level.
My view is that he be charged because of the all negligent actions leading up to the shooting. The people need to speak and their voice is the grand jury.

Andrew Brod

I thought I was Ace.

Billy Jones

Bubba wrote, "What makes no difference?

The fact that certain hysterics want to make this into a "white on black" hate crime?

Or is it the fact that no indictment has been made?"


Bubba, not once have I referenced black, white or hispanics. But you have. So apparently you are the one with the hysterical race issues.

Time to hang up your guns, Bubba. It's obvious you're not sure which one of us is your target. I'm pro gun but anti Zimmerman, who, like you, was unable to distinguish who the target is.

Andrew Brod

Scratch that. Maybe I'm not your Ace, buddy.

Billy Jones

Andy asked, "I thought I was Ace"

Like I said, time for Bubba to hang up his guns as he can no longer distinguish his target. Sad, but it happens to some of the best shootists.

bubba

"Bubba, not once have I referenced black, white or hispanics."

It helps when you pay attention to context of the thread when you read posts.

bubba

"I thought I was Ace."

Here's a hint: Wheen I refer to someone as "Ace", it's not a name; it's a generic category for always alternately clued posters.

You're not alone in earning membership into that category.

Perhaps you'd prefer to be in the "little buddy" category instead. There are several of you who qualify in that regard for your diminutive academic and intellectual stature.

Billy Jones

Bubba wrote: "It helps when you pay attention to context of the thread when you read posts."

But you quoted me when you wrote: "What makes no difference?

The fact that certain hysterics want to make this into a "white on black" hate crime?

Or is it the fact that no indictment has been made?"

It helps when you pay attention to context of the actual comment on which you are commenting. Seriously Dude, learn to shoot straight.

Don't worry folks, Bubba may not be able to properly distinguish his targets but as he's shooting blanks it's only noise. As long as he's not shooting off next to Mayor Perkin's downtown condo it isn't a problem.

Ian McDowell

Coming late to this, it seems to me that Ed's original point wasn't so much to somehow accuse conservatives of being racists (Geraldo is a conservative now?) as to ridicule the absurd claim that wearing a hoodie makes you a criminal, or at least easy to mistake for one.

Yes, some criminals wear hoodies. The guy who attempted to mug me on Edgar Street last month did. It was dark, he pretended to have a gun (there was a towel or another hoodie wrapped around his hand) and told me to give him my wallet. Gambling that he didn't really have a gun, I stold him to go fuck himself and stepped quickly past him, onto a better lighted street, and he ran in the other direction while I was calling the cops. A local habitual felon with a pretty nasty record has been arrested for that after I picked him out of a photo lineup, but as I told the detective, I can't be absolutely sure it's the same guy, due the fact that my would-be mugger was wearing a hoodie, it was dark, and I only saw him briefly. That should make the trial interesting, if he doesn't cop a plea (seriously, the guy they've pegged for it is a truly dangerous character -- if by chance he DIDN'T do it and I have misidentified him, I can easily imagine him coming after me).

But in the past, criminals wore fedoras or caps pulled down over their faces for much the same reason. Is everyone wearing a fedora asking to be shot? As much as I hate hipsters, I'm going to have to answer "no" on that one (now, if you ask me if they all deserve a punch in the face, I might answer you differently). Furthermore, I have a hoodie, as do quite a few men and women I know. Tom Cruise wore a hoodie on the poster for MI3. There's the Jessie Eisenberg photo posted above. It's a ridiculous claim from a ridiculous man, something his own son has mocked him for saying.

Ed Cone

My post made fun of Geraldo for his incorrect and morally objectionable statement.

But his statement does make a point about racial stereotypes -- specifically, the association of a black kid's mode of dress with criminality and danger.

His assumption is that Zimmerman was motivated in some meaningful way by this stereotype.

That line of thinking and asking about stereotypes seems much more important to me than all the noisemaking and point-scoring from across the political and media spectrum.

Spag

Other famous hoodies- Unabomber, Bono, and Phil Laak.

Andrew Brod

Good point. I'd shoot Bono on sight.

bubba

"...specifically, the association of a black kid's mode of dress with criminality and danger."

That's right.

There are many goofball slacker white kids who share that particular affectation, some of whom might actually have committed violence against someone.

On the other hand, we have the character "Onion" in the comic strip "Curtis" as an possible example of a cultural stereotype, don't we?

Spag

Maybe the current Bono, but the truly cool Bono of the pre-Achtung Baby era is worth sparing.

Lex

Oh, dear, looks like police video discredits Zimmerman's account of being attacked by Martin.

But, you know, a Baggie.

Also, the fact that Martin had been suspended from school previously, if fact it be, is irrelevant to this case. It's like suggesting that a rapist shouldn't be prosecuted because his victim had consensual sex with someone else earlier in the evening.

polifrog

Sorry, Lex. It doesn't.

The cuts to Zimmerman's scalp are evident in the video as is the damage to his nose, all of which the officers noted upon arrival at the scene and prior to Zimmerman's being checked over by paramedics.

Please, Lex. Stop hating.

Andrew Brod

"Martin's girlfriend, who was on the phone with him in his final moments, told ABC News in an exclusive interview that she has not been interviewed by police, despite Martin telling her he was being followed."

So I guess your response to that is to say, nuh uh, she was too interviewed by police.

polifrog

No.

Not only does police examination of the scene reject Lex's misdirection, the video itself rejects Lex's misdirection.

However, hear-say from Martin's unbiased girlfriend should indeed be explored assuming it too isn't manufactured like the "skittles and tea" Martin was supposedly carrying with him.

Andrew Brod

Supposedly? He wasn't carrying Skittles and tea? Is the conservative party line now that he was armed?

I gotta admit--you guys stay on message. And you gradually move it in the direction you want. Pretty soon you'll be telling us that society should thank its lucky stars that Zimmerman shot Martin before the latter fulfilled his obvious destiny as a serial killer.

polifrog

Pulling a narrative toward truth is easier than holding it to a lie.

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