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« IFYI | Main | The missionary's position »

Mar 23, 2012

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Account Deleted

As with the fetishization of guns that corbly mentioned on the other thread, this boils down to reinforcing our own narrow subjectivity. A frequent poster here says on facebook that Geraldo is right and that if you wear a hoddie you are marking yourself as a "gangbanger".

Russel Kirk wrote that a firm belief in God was the foundation of conservatism, but I am beginning to believe that a dedication to the narrow world view of white men over 50 might be the new definition.

Hugh

Black hats, zoot suits, blue jeans, rolled up tee-shirt sleeves, berets, bandannas, tye-dye shirts, long hair, leather, and trench coats have all had stereotype characterizations over time. Now it's hoodies.

Geraldo is a freak.

Sue

For FB'ers, check this image & comments by Chris Rabb. You may remember Chris from 2 ConvergeSouth presentations (one where was keynoter), and a whole lot more.

Grant

"When you wear the NRA Gadsden Hoodie, you show everyone that you support and protect their 2nd Amendment rights, whether they like it or not."

Steve

or Jesse Pinkman

http://www.usatoday.com/life/television/news/2009-04-30-aaron-paul_N.htm

Lex

Saw today on Twitter (via a friend's retweet) that Geraldo has doubled down. The number of "journalists" I'd like to kick in the junk just keeps getting higher.

SAL LEONE

I am not sure why clothes came into play here in the shooting incident. The issue should be that the shooter was to agressive and trying to prove something. The guy was touched and should of been dealt with sometime before the shooting with all his calls to 911. The calls should of shown some signs of his mental health, who else goes around like that.

The guy needs to be charged with murder, the kid from all accounts had no weapon, only a drink and candy and was minding his business. If some nut came up to me asking me questions, I get ill also.

The hoodie is a kid style these days.

Account Deleted

Well said, Sal. All that needs to be understood is that the dispatcher told Zimmerman to back off and he kept pushing. What happened after that is anyone's guess.

Its also sad to see some elements of the fringe right coming to the defense of Zimmerman's actions.

Billy Jones

As a gun owner and CCW permit holder who firmly believes in my right to carry a weapon, I think some on the right are picking the wrong hero to put on the NRA hat. There are lots of real heroes out there.

bubba

"Its also sad to see some elements of the fringe right coming to the defense of Zimmerman's actions."

It's way past sad that the fringe left and their race-baiting pals are demagoging this without knowing the facts.

Account Deleted

Sheriff Sam Page on Facebook linked to a statement by the NRA that said Zimmerman was way out of bounds of the intent of Stand your Ground when he ignored the dispatcher and continued to pursue the teen who was minding his own business walking down the street.

SAL LEONE

The fact is that even law enforcement officers need reasonable suspicion to stop someone they believe is, has or about to committ a crime, the kid was walking with candy and a drink. The guy was a hot head and wanted to be a hero. I am all for citizens getting involved in their community but they need to leave the policing to the police. The guy had no right to stop the kid and the kid had all the right to walk away.

What kind of country do we live in when anyone can stop someone armed and someone gets killed.

Andrew Brod

What are the facts we need to know, Bubs?

(Kudos to Jeff for ignoring him, but I must say I'm curious.)

polifrog

This perhaps? It's not part of the myth the press is pushing...

polifrog

Oops.


This perhaps?

Andrew Brod

Fair enough. That witness account makes the picture less clear.

Even so, my understanding is that other 911 callers said it was too dark to see who was who in the fight. And Martin being on top doesn't imply that Martin started the fight. But the witness's statement is important and should be taken into account (as it clearly was given the lack of arrest).

However, that just means this witness's statement is evidence on par with the other evidence, much of which isn't so helpful to the Zimmerman defenders. It doesn't trump everything else we know about this case.

Still seems like an arrest should have been made.

Thomas

Maybe Martin was just standing his ground.

polifrog

Maybe Zimmerman was just standing his ground.

Andrew Brod

Maybe, but what's more likely given what we know (and even in view of the information to which you link), is that Zimmerman didn't stand his ground. He pursued Martin.

Brian

And this Friday, the ICRCM will be hosting a Justice for Trayvon Martin Rally from 6-8pm. Hoodies and/or black attire encourage, not required.

SAL LEONE

The facts are clear in the case. The shooter was not a cop and was acting like one. The shooter had a gun and the kid didn't. The 911 operator told him to back off. The shooter confronted the kid and maybe a fight did break out but I would to if some guy walked up to me and asked what am I doing. I can not walk in the shoes of an African American and it more then likely gets old when people think you are always up to no good. I think this frustration led up to the fight after being confronted.
I like people to think for a minute, who likes to be bothered by the police and asked why you are somewhere, and who wants to hear this from a watch guy.

I am in law enforcement and can say that charges need to be pressed here, he started a fight and as he was getting his butt kicked he pulled a gun. The grand jury needs to decide here.

Billy Jones

Zimmerman chased Martin down, a fight ensued. Zimmerman wasn't man enough to take the ass kicking he deserved from a 17 year old kid 70 pounds lighter so like the coward he is, Zimmerman pulled his gun and killed Martin.

In my world, Zimmerman is a pussy and has no sense of honor. For Froggy and Bubba to continue to support Zimmerman even after the NRA has said Zimmerman was in the wrong, goes to show how Froggy and Bubba are unable to recognize the truth even when the truth is kicking their asses.

polifrog

Where have I supported either, Billy?

The presentation of possible facts that do not comport with your assumptions are not indicative of my assumptions -- only yours.

I agree, however, that it was not wise for Zimmerman to chase a possible drug dealer, if that is what he in fact did, as it could very well have ended with Zimmerman's head being beat to a bloody pulp on the sidewalk by the 6'4" youth. Fortunately for Zimmerman it did not end that way.

bubba

"The facts are clear in the case."

No, they most certainly are not. Anyone who says so is just running their mouth. As a police officer, you should understand that.

The hysteria being promoted is absurd, but not unexpected.

bubba

Meannwhile, here's some more detail.

bubba

Let's talk about how this case has been presented in the media.

Billy Jones

Bubba, your more detail only makes Zimmerman look guilty. He chased Martin-- he caught him. Just not the way he planned. Martin throwing the first punch appears to be a defensive move-- run, duck and hit your attacker when he comes past.

Poli, You claim not to be taking sides, "Where have I supported either, Billy?" and you you end with, "Fortunately for Zimmerman it did not end that way." Yeah, right.

We agree that Zimmerman was a victim of his over zealous actions and stupidity. Smart people don't chase after opponents that are their superior. Had Zimmerman listened to the police dispatcher in the first place this would have never happened. If anyone is wrong here it's Zimmerman. As for Martin being a possible drug dealer-- possession of an empty baggie (Bubba's link) might be enough to get thrown out of a Florida high school but it's not enough to pin the title, possible drug dealer on him.

Hell, for all I know you and Bubba are possible drug dealers.

By the way, if kids aren't allowed to possess baggies then do they all carry their lunches wrapped in wax paper? Oh wait, waxed paper can be used for rolling papers. Aluminum foil? No, I've seen pipes made from aluminum foil and a soft drink can. Are soft drink cans banned from Florida as well?

bubba

"He chased Martin-- he caught him."

Says who?

Zimmerman says the opposite.

You don't know the facts here. Don't pretend that you do.

Oh, by the way: The "empty baggy" wasn't quite empty. This was verified by Martin's family.

Ed Cone

Oh no, a high school kid smoked pot? Shoot him.

This is nice, too.

David Hoggard

The truth of this will land somewhere in the middle, as it usually does.

But who, besides the bubbas of this world, could give a flying shit about whether or not the deceased kid had an empty baggy or one that was chocked full of herb? Better come shoot half of the kids I know (and me, from days gone by) if "not completely empty baggy" is what passes for even a partial justification of a tragic death.

polifrog

Test

Andrew Brod

The other point being missed by the Bubbas of this world is that we don't need to determine the truth right here, because that's what the legal system is for. It's one thing to claim that a jury would acquit Zimmerman, because maybe it would. It's bizarre to claim that Zimmerman is so obviously innocent that no trial is necessary.

polifrog

As long as we are discussing Trevon's previous offenses,: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html

Miami Gardens teenager Trayvon Martin was suspended from school in October in an incident in which he was found in possession of women’s jewelry and a screwdriver that a schools security staffer described as a “burglary tool,” The Miami Herald has learned. [...]

Trayvon’s backpack contained 12 pieces of jewelry, in addition to a watch and a large flathead screwdriver, according to the report, which described the screwdriver as a burglary tool.

Trayvon was asked if the jewelry, which was mostly women’s rings and earrings, belonged to his family or a girlfriend.

“Martin replied it’s not mine. A friend gave it to me,” according to the report. Trayvon declined to name the friend.

[...]

That suspension was followed four months later by another one, in February, in which Trayvon was caught with an empty plastic bag with traces of marijuana in it, the boy’s family’s attorney has confirmed. A schools police report obtained by The Miami Herald specifies two items: a bag with marijuana residue and a “marijuana pipe.”

The suspension was the third for the teen. On Monday, the family also acknowledged Trayvon had earlier been suspended for tardiness and truancy.


http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html

Ishmael

I guess when you create laws that make the courts unnecessary, the court of public opinion reigns instead.

polifrog

Brod:

The other point being missed by the Bubbas of this world is that we don't need to determine the truth right here, because that's what the legal system is for.

The "truth" was is that we have just witnessed another attempted media lynching fail.

If not for the Bubbas of the world the left would still (most still are) be attempting to determine the truth right now with the same media distortions that have driven the Black Panthers to call for Zimmerman's abduction, a 10,000 reward for his capture, a bounty despite the the Fact that Zimmerman is not a wanted man.

The reality is that there has developed in our society a pattern of accusation based on the assumptions of leftist racial expectation rather than fact.

This dynamic has resulted in the public media lynchings of innocent individuals and groups before the diligence of time is able to reveal leftist media racial accusations to be the falsehoods they repeatedly are.

In the end the damage of the accusations remain, haunting society with the specter of racism that never was.

I appreciate your coming around to Bubba's patience, Doc.

bubba

"Oh no, a high school kid smoked pot? Shoot him."

Look, I know people like you need to make this a "white" on black racist hate crime that never would have happened if we made sure no one had guns.

I know people like you need to make some absurd political or social point to rationalize some warped world view or another whenever you get the chance, such as the one that's presented here.

But really, do you, Obama, Sharpton, Jackson, and your media tag team buddies have to be such complete fools about your hysteria?

Ishmael

"You don't know the facts here. Don't pretend that you do."

I have a feeling that no facts are forthcoming in this case. Only one true witness exists, and his bias is evident.
Perhaps the best we can hope for is an intense scrutiny of the gun law which led to this tragedy.

polifrog

Ishmeal:

I guess when you create laws that make the courts unnecessary, the court of public opinion reigns instead.

and,

Brod:

I guess when you create laws that make the courts unnecessary, the court of public opinion reigns instead. It's one thing to claim that a jury would acquit Zimmerman, because maybe it would. It's bizarre to claim that Zimmerman is so obviously innocent that no trial is necessary.

Looks like we won this one, Bubba.

The Doc. is making up bizarre references "It's bizarre to claim that Zimmerman is so obviously innocent that no trial is necessary" that have never been made and Ishmeal echos his imaginings.

Looks like they, at least, may restrain judgement....

bubba

"The Doc. is making up bizarre references "It's bizarre to claim that Zimmerman is so obviously innocent that no trial is necessary" that have never been made and Ishmeal echos his imaginings."

When you need to frame the discussion with hysteria like that, it does indicate they're pretty desperate, doesn't it?

Ishmael

Explanations so adroit belong to the same person who peels their apples with an axe!

bubba

"Explanations so adroit belong to the same person who peels their apples with an axe!'

Sounds like just the type of analogy that should be used by someone who needs a throwaway line to exit their losing proposition here.

polifrog

I believe Brod's idea of accepting defeat is to claim his opponent's position as his own then denounce that opponent for having his previous position when they do not and never did.

Have you ever met someone who so hates to be wrong that they choose total fantasy? ... and so publicly?

Damn.

Spag

Hoodie = red herring.
Race = red herring.

This is really a debate about self defense and whether it was deployed and/or justified in this case.

Also, the federal government needs to charge the New Black Panthers under the conspiracy statutes for offering a bounty to unlawfully kidnap/restrain a person who is not a fugitive. Imagine if it was the Klan that did such a thing.

This is just going to be one of those cases where the surrounding noise causes more trouble than the heart of the case. Yes, the boy was shot and none of us know what really happened or why at this point (see also Duke lacrosse case), but that won't matter because it can be politicized in an election year and the facts won't ever matter.

We make assumptions in either direction at our own peril (again see Duke lacrosse case).

Andrew Brod

Wow, I go away for a little while and come back to find my words contorted. Of course, that's Frog's thing.

I would have thought it pretty uncontroversial to expect an arrest and maybe a trial to sort out disputed facts. The only people making assumptions are those who are positive that no trial is necessary.

cheripickr

He didn't contort your words, Andy, he quoted them:
"The other point being missed by the Bubbas of this world is that we don't need to determine the truth right here, because that's what the legal system is for."

"I guess when you create laws that make the courts unnecessary, the court of public opinion reigns instead. It's one thing to claim that a jury would acquit Zimmerman, because maybe it would. It's bizarre to claim that Zimmerman is so obviously innocent that no trial is necessary."

Then based on the discrepancy between your claims and what he and Bubs actually said, concluded :"I believe Brod's idea of accepting defeat is to claim his opponent's position as his own then denounce that opponent for having his previous position when they do not and never did." Perfectly logical from the flow of the thread to me.

Then your next statement: "Wow, I go away for a little while and come back to find my words contorted."...pretty much proves his last one, as well as his next one:

"Have you ever met someone who so hates to be wrong that they choose total fantasy? ... and so publicly?"

Man, at least own up to your own claims in this thread that are contorted, or quote Poli's comments that make them accurate, as Poli has done with yours. Then show us the words of yours he contorted, and how.

SAL LEONE

I agree Bubba that I am in Law Enforcement and yes all the facts are not in but enough are in for a baseline call. The fact of self defense is that you can not retreat and that you are not the agressor.The other subject was using physical force not deadly force. The law in NC is clear, use deadly force if deadly force is used on you or third person. I dont see getting beat up by a 17 old kid a need to use deadly force and if that is the case then anyone who swings on me and hits me then I can just shoot them. The kid probably had some weed and was harassing no one nor was he selling it.

Bubba look at it this way, someone comes to your door and saids come out and I will beat your butt, you open the door and shoot him, this is not self defense by the courts in NC because he engaged teh subject when he was in a safe place so no threat of deadly force here. The guy was told to wait for police, the guy just had an idea the kid was up to no good, no evidence that helooked in windows, tried to open doors, etc. The fact is that he was wearing a hoodie and was black so the guy put him in a class of being a gang banger.
The bottom line is that he had no legal right to confront the kid and the kid had no obligation to stop. The guy wanted to be a hero and got his butt beat up and decided that he was in fear for his life and had put himself in that place. sad all the way around

Andrew Brod

CP, if your "logical" assessment of this thread is that I accepted defeat, claimed my opponent's position as my own, and so on, then there's no explaining to you.

cheripickr

just what I thought-can't even do the simple task of linking your claims to the quotes they refer to. It's Ok. Everybody else can.


bubba

"yes all the facts are not in but enough are in for a baseline call."

Not even close.

Why has Zimmerman not been charged with ANY crime?

bubba

"CP, if your 'logical' assessment of this thread is that I accepted defeat, claimed my opponent's position as my own, and so on, then there's no explaining to you."

Translation: "I'm never wrong, and even when I am, I'll obfuscate the ponbt to avoid culpability."

What more are we to expect from such an empty suit?

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