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Feb 05, 2012

Comments

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Billy Jones

Distributed parking would be much easier to achieve inside the green circle.

Ron

Don't stop there. Create a pedestrian walk over above Davie Street from the PAC parking deck to the Wyndham Hotel/Empire Room. Hotel guest could get to their cars or see an event at the PAC when the weather is bad. The PAC deck would be a block east of South Elm Street so that would be much needed parking in that section of downtown day and night.

Ron

The News & Record lot is perfect for the PAC

Billy Jones

Don't stop there either.

Distributed parking could be accomplished via shuttle buses-- park people all over the entire city and bus them to and from the PAC.

Ron, The N&R property has come up in several conversations about the PAC online and offline. So much so that I can't help but wonder if it's true.

David Wharton

Thank you for the link and the kind words.

GeoHartzman

I believe the plan from 2008the he's two gn&r properties as possible locations.

GeoHartzman

I hear 1800 seats could fit into carolina theater. It's right in the middle of everything, cost a lot less

Thomas

Billy - "Distributed parking could be accomplished via shuttle buses-- park people all over the entire city and bus them to and from the PAC."

Doesn't that defeat the purpose of distributed parking?

Billy Jones

Yes Thomas, it does defeat the purpose of distributed parking but as David pointed out in his post, no one involved in the planning of the PAC is talking about distributed parking so what's the difference?

Ron

Another great thing about building the PAC on the News & Record lot is the fact that its across the street from the depot. citizens could take public transportation to the depot which could help cut down on vehicles. People coming from the Triangle and Charlotte area could have the option to take a train to come to the PAC. and if a deck is built with it, it does make sense to build the PAC on the News & Record lot so Wyndham hotel guests can use the deck. The corner of Davie and Washington Streets is pretty much across the street from the back side of the Elm Street Center. I would also build a parking deck that has businesses on the ground level facing Davie Street.

Ron

In Durham the hotel/motel tax paid a big portion of their performing arts center. How come Greensboro can't do the same? A big chunk of it could be paid with hotel/motel tax and another portion with donations and private dollars. That way we can build a bigger and better facility than Durham's. If we do this there is no need to ask local tax payers to build this.

Billy Jones

Ron, That way we can build a bigger and better facility than Durham's. If we do this there is no need to ask local tax payers to build this."

But what about Greensboro's performing artists?

Oh, and the Hotel Myth, I always love it when you bring up that one.

Ron

Well here is a plan I hope that city leaders and backers of the downtown PAC look at.

layout plan

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee394/cityviewgreensboro/PAC.jpg

Ron

PAC on the News & Record lot

updated link

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee394/cityviewgreensboro/PAC-1.jpg

David Wharton

Ron, putting a 9-story parking deck right next to the PAC is just the opposite of what I think should be done.

Brian

I am in the camp of the News & Record lot being my favorite location for the PAC, but a 9-store parking garage with pedestrian overpass are certainly not needed. The idea is to spur street-level activity which a pedestrian overpass would not. Our weather is too fine to even begin to think of such a thing. I also fall in the camp that a downtown parking garage is not needed. The N&R could get into the surface parking lot fee-based business, and I believe Adam Fischer, the City's DOT head, indicated there is enough parking downtown to absorb the principal evening associated activities of a PAC. Shuttle buses should be fine to help assist with some of the Coliseum's parking issues - it worked wonders for the Wyndham - and Matt Brown ought to give it a try.

Ron

The city is planning a new parking deck regardless of what happens in terms of the PAC. It will have to be a mid-rise deck to accommodate all the cars. Since there aren't as many surface lots near the News & Record lot, some kind of parking structure needs to be built. But to add to street level activity, I included retail on the ground floor plan. BTW the deck should not look like a deck. It should be designed to look like a mixed-use building. 9-stories is not too tall. consider that the Guilford Building on the opposite corner is 15-stories. The project could include a pedestrian bridge over Davie but it doesn't have too. I just included it as a conceptual idea. But it does help create a physical link between the PAC and a potential Wyndham Hotel. The PAC at this location does help the argument for building the Wyndham behind the Elm Street Center.

Ron

BTW shuttling is a good idea but most people will see that is inconvenient. This is why Durham built a deck next to theirs. Remember we have to have competitive amenities and Durham boast on site parking. Even when you look at street parking, there isn't a lot of spaces. A deck next to the PAC on the News and Record lot combined with the Greene street deck two blocks away will greatly help the parking situation.

Brian

For the PAC to have a significant presence at that location, it would reguire the entire frontage between Davie and Church. A parking structure on the same lot would take away from what ideally will be an architecturally significant structure. If a garage is needed, build at one of the sites the City has identified and people can walk to the facility.

Ron

The News & Record lot is a pretty big tract of land. Its not going to take that whole lot for a performing arts center unless it has some sort of public plaza. I still think on site parking or at least significant within a block is needed to compete with Durham. Architects know how to hide a parking deck.

Ron

Here is an interesting parking deck. While I would not recommend any deck like this to be built in downtown Greensboro, its an example of how architects can be creative. I think its possible to have a stunning well designed parking deck and at the same time make it appear to be more of a welled designed build instead of a deck.

http://www.mnn.com/sites/default/files/Miami_garage.jpg

GeoHartzman

Funny, but I don't remember the paper mentioning their lot

Ron

Action Greensboro mentioned it as one of the locations being considered for a PAC. I know the lot was for sale at one time. Clearly the News & Record would have to decide if they want to sell it. The PAC being built there really hinges in that and how much the lot will sell for. Guilford County GIS website list the land value of the entire News & Record property (land value) at $2.9 million

Brian

No, George, but up until a year ago, it was on the market. I bet you it's still for sale. Ron - I would prefer a public plaza to a parking garage there...either way we've both got the cart in front of us while the horse is still in the barn.

Ron

Brian here is another layout which moves the deck on the other side of Washington Street on city property. The entire News & Record property consists of a PAC with a public plaza.

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee394/cityviewgreensboro/PAC3.jpg

Ron

The Triad Business Journal printed an article about the possibility of the PAC going in the South Elm/Lee Street development. While its a good idea, i'm not sure its the best place to put the PAC in downtown Greensboro. I would prefer to put it closer in the core near all the restaurants and other entertainment establishments. The News & Record lot is my favorite location for reasons I mentioned. But also the News & Record lot is in close proximity to Triad Stage and the Carolina Theatre.

http://www.bizjournals.com/triad/news/2012/02/03/commission-sets-schedule-for-gsos.html

Billy Jones

Ron, "The Triad Business Journal printed an article about the possibility of the PAC going in the South Elm/Lee Street development. While its a good idea, i'm not sure its the best place to put the PAC in downtown Greensboro."

Better view and more convenient location.

And remember: ...if Greensboro's better-off population is so snobbish, classist and racist as to refuse to patronize an East Greensboro Performing Arts Center then none of Greensboro deserves to have a performing arts center no matter where they ultimately decide to locate it.

And on that you all know I'm right. Now let's talk about doing the right thing for Greensboro.

JimC

Durham's PAC is right next to the Bulls' ballpark. Parking should have been a non-starter as the ballpark has a bigger capacity than the PAC, right? Would any version of the Greensboro PAC have a larger capacity than Newbridge Bank Park? I would want the ballpark & PAC to share parking - ballpark has enough, so parking's not a real problem.

Are people really going to travel from the Triangle or Charlotte to the GSO PAC?

Architect's ability to be creative is strongly a function of cost. A parking garage on South Beach, an area with a rich architectural history and extremely expensive property values, is a different beast than a garage in downtown GSO.

Brian

Jim - I think shared parking and distributed parking are certainly the way to go. The one challenge with putting it next to the ballpark would be the potential conflict of evening games and evening performances. (Or, maybe we can time the fireworks to go off at the end of the opera.) And, yes if people travel from outside the region for Triad Stage, they can and will travel here for PAC events.

Ron - Any use of the N&R lot would need to investigate that railroad spur. I haven't seen it used, but depending on ownership, resolving that issue can take years.

Ron

1) The ballpark is blessed with a large number of surface lots and on street parking around the ballpark potential PAC sites are not.

2) Yes people will travel from Charlotte or Raleigh to Greensboro depending on who is booked to perform at the PAC

3) We can have a uniquely designed parking deck. Our city leaders just need to get out of the mindset that everything has to be built to look like early 20th century architecture on Elm Street. Greensboro can do anything it wants to with in reason and we need to start thinking outside the box in terms of architecture.

Ron

Brian, after looking at the property lines on the GIS website, it appears that the rail spur is within News & Record's property. In fact the track ends right up to the building. But who knows I could be wrong.

Billy Jones

One thing they aren't talking about is that the PAC will be competing with the Greensboro Coliseum Complex for performances, hense the need to annually suppliment the PAC.

Brian, Good question. Railroad spurs are usually owned by the property owner but not always. And should it be owned by the NCRR then forget about it as they not only own tracks but claim a 200' right-of-way and have been committing a land grab for years now. According to NCRR, several historic Greensboro buildings and numerous other structures have been permitted by the City to be built on said, right-of-ways and neither the City nor the N&R is going to talk about if for fear of lawsuits against the City.

Billy Jones

Brian, "The one challenge with putting it next to the ballpark would be the potential conflict of evening games and evening performances. (Or, maybe we can time the fireworks to go off at the end of the opera.) And, yes if people travel from outside the region for Triad Stage, they can and will travel here for PAC events."

Again, not a problem.

Billy Jones

Property lines don't mean a thing when it comes to NCRR right-of-ways. Ask anyone who ever bought property next to the NCRR. If the N&R paid a fee to the NCRR to build that spur then it belongs to the N&R. But, if the NCRR paid for the construction of the spur then the N&R signed away its rights to the property.

I'm betting no one at the N&R knows and has no way to find out as that seems to be SOP when dealing with the NCRR.

Ron

The downtown PAC wouldn't be competing with the coliseum arena. Most of these shows are specifically for performing arts centers. There is no need for a 23,000 seat arena for these shows. Furthermore, I doubt the Greensboro Symphony Orchestra will be performing in the coliseum arena.

Even if Norfolk Southern owned that rail spur and didn't want to sell it, there is still room for a PAC on the News & Record lot. The parking deck would just have to go across Washington street in place of the city owned parking lot at the corner of Davie and Washington next to the depot.

Billy Jones

Ron, "The downtown PAC wouldn't be competing with the coliseum arena."

No, but it will be competing with the War Memorial Auditorium-- a part of the Greensboro Coliseum Complex. Besides, I just got an e-mail that Martinsville, VA. already has a PAC under construction. Greensboro may already be screwed. More as soon as I know it.

Ron

War Memorial Auditorium is going to be demolished if we get a new PAC. Building the PAC downtown would help Matt Brown with his parking issues at the coliseum. Once War Memorial Auditorium is torn down, he can use the space for more parking.

Billy Jones

Ron, "Once War Memorial Auditorium is torn down, he can use the space for more parking."

If that's the case they why is Matt Brown asking that the PAC be built at the Coliseum and not downtown? Fact is: He has come out publicly asking for money to remodel War Memorial Auditorium.

Billy Jones

Like I said earlier, Martinsville beat Greensboro to the punch.

Ron

If the PAC were built on the News & Record lot, all it would need is a 700 car parking deck. The Greene Street deck two blocks away hold 700 cars so there would be two parking facilities (1,400 parking spaces) within two blocks of the PAC (not including parking on Washington Street or S Elm Street) The seating capacity of the PAC would be about 2,800 but you would only need about half that number in parking spaces since most people would come to events in pairs or groups and would ride in the same vehicle. So downtown parking for this facility isn't going to be as big of a challenge as coliseum promoters would like to make of it.

Billy Jones

Ron, There's already a parking lot on this roughly 10 acre city owned site and almost 6 undeveloped empty acres next door-- no need to build the parking deck and over $20 Million Dollars saved before the doors even open.

Parking, no problem. $20 Million Dollars, big problem!

Ron

Hell will freeze over first before a performing arts center is built next to the projects (Claremont Homes). There are so many reasons why a PAC would never get built on the 10 acres in Northeast Greensboro that you cited. They are having a difficult time just getting a simple grocery store built over there.

Billy Jones

Ron, as I've said before, "if Greensboro's better-off population is so snobbish, classist and racist as to refuse to patronize an East Greensboro Performing Arts Center then none of Greensboro deserves to have a performing arts center no matter where they ultimately decide to locate it."

To infer as you did that "Hell will freeze over first before a performing arts center is built next to the projects (Claremont Homes)." wreaks of classism and racism, pure and simple and is the very reason the projects were built there by the City of Greensboro.


The grocery store will never come until the city of Greensboro fixes the problems created by the City of Greensboro. City Council members admitted so even before the city bought the shopping center.

""Goldie Wells, a neighborhood activist who has worked to recruit another store for the shopping center , said locating stores in west Greensboro is a form of invisible racism that makes just about everything a struggle. Residents without a car can either pay much more for food at a convenience store or spend money and time to take a bus or taxi to another part of town to shop ." --2004 Greensboro News & Record

The grocery store promise was a bill of goods, a slick move by Council to help out a real estate investor who bought a shopping center he couldn't unload and keep Goldie Wells and Johnson in office through another term. Goldie's statement was in 2004, long before the city bought the property. The rest of the Council helped her seal the deal and cover the lie and now they want to use lies to the tune of $72 Million Dollars.

Now the failing N&R property is being pitched to bail out the publisher of the N&R, another long time buddy of Greensboro's elite.

A PAC on Phillips Ave would go a long ways towards fixing the problems created by the City as then the City would finally be vested in the very neighborhood they deliberately chose to destroy.

And Ron, who is paying you?

sean

billy, comparing a grocery store to a PAC is ridiculous; the former can, by definition, serve all, while the latter has a very specific customer demographic.

in ron's defense (and mine now, i suppose), one doesn't need to be paid to be rational.

Ron

Billy I don't think its racist. Its just the facts a PAC will never be built in an area where there is higher crime regardless of race and that's not even the issue. You forget that the site you proposed in east Greensboro is smack dab in the middle of a residential neighborhood. A facility like that will never be built in the middle of a residential neighborhood no matter what side of town we are talking about.

Billy Jones

Sean, so it's true that "...Greensboro's better-off population is so snobbish, classist and racist as to refuse to patronize an East Greensboro Performing Arts Center..." ?

Even you?

Where is the rationality in classism and racism, Sean? Where? There is none.

Ridiculous comparisons? Hardly. The grocery stores won't come because of the perception of the neighborhood. You. Ron and others in Greensboro don't believe the neighborhood is a good location for a PAC citing the very same perceptions.

And who says a PAC can't serve all? A PAC so placed as to be accessible to even the poorest could serve all. It's as if you and Ron deliberately want to exclude the poor from your performing arts center.

What about the artists and the children, do they not count simply because they're black and/or poor?

The plan to build a downtown PAC is a form of taxpayer-funded stimulus being given to a neighborhood (downtown) whose boosters all claim is doing great. You, Ron and the rest of the downtown flunkies are constantly telling me that downtown is doing so well every time I say it isn't and if downtown is doing well then it's time we stopped stimulating downtown and started stimulating the rest of Greensboro.

Which is it, Sean? Is downtown doing well or is downtown failing? There's no need for stimulus if downtown is doing well and if downtown is failing then downtown boosters like you and Ron are liars. Which is it, Sean?

The only thing not rational about my argument is people like you and Ron who are so racist and classist that they choose not to share the arts with the rest of us.

Sean, read the whole damned thing (every page) before you go running off at the mouth again and making yourself look like a racist, classist fool with no understanding of rationality.

And will someone please give me the correct spellings of classist and classism or explain it to spell check if I'm correct in my spellings.

East Greensboro has been dumped on for over 100 years with the approval and participation of the Greensboro City Council so that people like Ron and Sean don't have to deal with the problems-- it's time East Greensboro was repaid.

It's about fairness, Sean. It's time East Greensboro got more than lip service and false promises. If you can't stand up for fairness then you are the lowest of the low. And if the rest of Greensboro is unable to stand up for fairness then Greensboro doesn't deserve a performing arts center.

Ed Cone

Billy, people have given a number of reasons why your idea is not going to be a finalist in this bake-off.

Calling them names and questioning their decency doesn't change that.

Billy Jones

Ron,
So downtown isn't also a residential neighborhood? Isn't mixed use the new standard? Or is it only a standard when it comes to downtown? Besides, most of the area in the green circle is empty.

Ed,
To date, no one has provided any reason why the PAC shouldn't be built in East Greensboro EXCEPT to imply we live in a bad neighborhood. Which, by the way, was caused by the Greensboro City Council and people who live in neighborhoods like your neighborhood (NIP) who didn't want the problems to come to their neighborhoods. And done so at taxpayers' expense.

Please, tell me the other reason(s) cited and I'll be more than happy to try to prove those reason false.

Which, by the way, is not something anyone has be able to use to debunk my arguments to date.

Let downtown build anything that downtown wants to build as long as downtown doesn't need the rest of Greensboro to pay for it. But before another dime of taxpayer money is spent on downtown Greensboro, the rest of Greensboro should come first. And the rest of Greensboro has many $Millions of catching up to do. If stimulus works for downtown then it can work for the rest of Greensboro.

It's okay, Ed, I've grown used to being scolded for saying what the rest of you are too chicken-shit to say-- the truth.

Billy Jones

PS. Ron, how can I forget I live in a residential neighborhood? As a matter of fact, I noted it in the text of the post you failed to read.

Again, I welcome anyone to challenge me with hard and fast reasons why the PAC shouldn't be built somewhere other than downtown and the Greensboro Coliseum Complex.

But I'll warn you all-- I'm way ahead of you and already preparing the answers to the questions and rebuttals to reasons you have yet to think of. I'm just waiting for you to bring them up.

sean

billy, i provided a very detailed position on your proposal on another thread here on ed's blog. i've also read everything you've posted and have nothing more to contribute. you whining about what east greensboro is owed and calling people names isn't going to change my perspective, nor the perspective of ron, dr. wharton or any number of other perfectly rational people (and non-racist/classists) who happen to see things differently from you.

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