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« Opacity | Main | Green for the Greenway »

Dec 12, 2011

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Dave Ribar

While I continue to shop at various home improvement centers, there are certain retailers that do not meet my expenditure guidelines, including the xenophobic retailer that has recently been brought to my attention.

Just as Lowes is free to decide how to spend and not spend its advertising dollars, the rest of us are free to decide how to spend or not spend our retail dollars.

MojoNixon

Lowes' 3rd quarter profits were down 44%, and it's getting its butt kicked by Home Depot.

It's that Mooresville-North Wilkesboro Axis of Goodolboydom.

You can dress it up in red, white, and blue all you want, but it still sucks and can't keep up with the big kid on the block.

Ed Cone

Wasn't Lowe's winning that battle a while ago?

This is marketing disaster, but I think companies cave to pressure groups and misuse the web independent of location.

Bill Yaner

Home Depot was always my choice until one of Jack Welch's whiz kids came over from GE to boost their profits by downsizing employees. Good idea. So when finding help for a question became a foot race, I switched to Lowe's and found a much more customer friendly environment, and have been there since.

Using Facebook to "clarify"? Looks like they took a page from the Netflix book of how to take a bad situation and make it worse.

Andrew Brod

Pamela Geller: Still a shonda for the neighbors.

cheripickr

I agree with Dave Ribar. And the only imaginable thing more loathsome and demanding of our consumer social activism than what Lowes did is all those racist xenophobe corporations who never advertised on the show at all. I will never shop anywhere that hasn't advertised on that show. It's nothing but not-so-subtle hate speech. Lowes just took one for the team for the rest of the nameless cowards. Bunch of gun-totin Nascar hick white supremacists all of 'em.

James

I have shopped at Lowe's three or four times a week for a decade - with a never-ending series of home improvement projects to manage. Home Depot is less than a mile farther down the road. An easy switch to make.

CP, sarcasm doesn't become you (or anyone, for that matter), especially when it's so easy to read it as a legitimate point of view.

cheripickr

"especially when it's so easy to read it as a legitimate point of view."

I truly hope you mean that sarcastically, else your future shopping options could become rather limited.

tk solomon

sarcasm certainly garnishes this baited thread.

cheripickr

ps, I'm taking it as a given that Home Depot is all over that program, otherwise some of these comments would seriously tempt sarcasm.

Dave Ribar

John,

My statement and avoidance of Lowes is no more socially active than Lowes' statement and avoidance of American Muslims.

While we continue to advertise on various cable networks, including TLC, there are certain programs that do not meet Lowe's advertising guidelines, including the show you brought to our attention. Lowe's will no longer be advertising on that program.

Through its statement, Lowes indicates that this is the standard it expects in commercial (pun intended) relations. I am treating Lowes the same way that it treats others.

polifrog

I don't get this thread...

Is the complaint that Lowes pulled an advert?

cheripickr

" I am treating Lowes the same way that it treats others."

Fine. Then don't advertise with Lowes, but I didn't see anywhere that Lowes was boycotting Muslim suppliers or their products. Do you really see selective advertising of one's products the same as boycotting one's entire business? Hey, if it makes you feel righteous...Just don't forget the carbon footprint factor if you have to drive further--could be a wash.

$10 000 and Mitt Romney says Tebow's 5:37 comment above mine will disappear without a trace

Ed Cone

"Is the complaint that Lowes pulled an advert?"

My post is really about the hazards of social media (also discussing this at my work blog and various social marketing groups at LinkedIn).

But, yes, I think the problem a lot of people have with Lowe's is that the company caved to the prejudices advanced by what seems to be a small group of professional complainers.

justcorbly

Trying to divert the discussion into something about "selective advertising" ignores what happened: Lowes caved in to some people in Florida who seem to think only some people can be good Americans. Of course, they've assumed the right to deicde who those people are.

If the show was called "All American Baptists" or "All American Jews", the people complaining to Lowes would be -- correctly -- branded as bigots. Apparently belief in American principles is shaky in some people, letting them confuse anti-Muslim bigotry with pro-American sentiments.

What religion you practice, if any, has nothing to do with being an American. It takes courage and thought to put away our natural wariness and fear of people who seem different than us. But, defining Americans by faith or genetics or anything other than adherence to the Constitution is a very dangerous game. People who can't agree to that might want to re-examine their commitment to democracy.

Dave Ribar

John:

Agreed, for the sake of consistency, I won't shop at Lowes or advertise there.

cheripickr

Poli, stay out of this. Whatever you say people will either feign questioning your seriousness or declare you an idiot and when you ask why the answer will be "because anyone who thinks that either can't be serious or must be an idiot" without need for further elaboration. They will then cast knowing smirks and winks at each other and be soothed in their consensus and smugness.

Dave, just confirm for me what I assume everyone else knows, that Home Depot is a big advertiser on that series, so that I can at least see where you're coming from, however silly and ineffectual I see it for whatever it is you expect it to accomplish.

Bill Yaner

Maybe the show really sucks. Has anyone actually watched it?

Dave Ribar

John:

If I find out that other businesses, including Home Depot, have responded the same way to the Florida Family Association's demand to pull advertising from this particular show, I'm likely to respond the same way.

Fec

[R}ight-wing authoritarians tend to exhibit cognitive errors and symptoms of faulty reasoning. Specifically, they are more likely to make incorrect inferences from evidence and to hold contradictory ideas that result from compartmentalized thinking. They are also more likely to uncritically accept insufficient evidence that supports their beliefs, and they are less likely to acknowledge their own limitations.

Bob Altemeyer

  Bill Yaner

I watched a few of the show's trailers from Ed's link, and while I'm not going to start recording it as one of my must sees, the content seems very mild and typical of reality show stuff minus the American obsessions with sex and personal conflicts. Nothing about jihad.

For anyone to be upset by that program is just foolishness. Lowe's weak knee'd executives needed to show a little more resistance to that kind of nonsense.

One man's opinion.

Andrew Brod

Bill, "nothing about jihad" is precisely the problem to the groups that made Lowe's crawl into a corner and whimper. Their claim is that by doing a show about some middle-class Americanized Muslim families, TLC is masking the underlying truth of jihad-obsessed Muslims.

It wouldn't be a problem if the Muslims in the show were like Jeff Dunham's dummy.

tk solomon

Altemeyer's quote reads like a horoscope. You could substitute any human who isn't part of the experiment for "right wing authoritarian" and achieve the same results. The research was done decades before he was introduced to the public.

You are more likely to believe in the myth of authority if you are human. This is why victims always outnumber the perps of a mass injustice, sometimes thousands to one.

We don't like people who think differently from us.
That's why we publicly shame or boycott them.
When most people are presented with facts or data that conflict with their model or worldview, they will destroy the data before they will alter their model and become even more entrenched in their beliefs. The illusion of assymetric insight plagues the species. Tebow 5:37

Fec

Wrong. - Fec

Fec

From a review of The Authoritarians:

As a psychologist myself, I want data to go with opinions. This book has data in spades. This is his first popular book on the topic of authoritarianism, following research that goes back four decades in the US and Canada, as well as collaboration with research in Russia. It explains in clear language, how the right wing authoritarian followers think, how they act, and how they are so gullible to being led by social dominators. While he does make political statements, these statements are backed up by a wealth of research. Any progressive who reads this and has watched what has happened to the US, will understand why we are so exasperated with seemingly intelligent people who seem so illogical, irrational, hypocritical, and dogmatic. They are often of fundamental religious persuasion. These people will follow their socially dominant leaders aggressive and sometimes violent acts without question. The socially dominant leaders whom they follow are truly frightening as they often mascarade as "one of them", but are actually without conscience and totally consumed by hunger for power. I would call this, for me, as enlightening as any book I have read in a decade.
cheripickr

When people's analysis of other people's writings are reduced to continuously recycling playground-tough sounding words like wrong, retard, idiot, coward, moron, racist, misogynist, booger-eater etc,etc it says all about the respective parties depth of thinking, open-mindedness, tolerance and self-confidence that needs to be said.

It's best to just sit back and watch the former become unglued, pull out their voodoo dolls and froth about their perceived villains who prefer alternate means of expressing themselves. Oh, every now and then someone might supply them with someone's else's smart-sounding 50 year old thesis they can link to and parade around as their doctrine, as supportive of their cause, in lieu of any effective expression of their own.


Their favorite trick, however, is to beat their demons to the punch in falsely projecting upon them the very immaturity, closemindedness and intolerance of diversity of ideas which they themselves exude through their own inumerable written examples, while the latter's attentions are diverted by the business of actually expressing ideas and formulating arguments.

It seems most often that it is those whose entire value systems, "courage", "integrity", etc seem to revolve around blogging who fall most naturally to these kinds of tactics, which would require too much time and effort for most people, even if they found it necessary.

Like I said, it can be entertaining at least, to watch the elaborate machinations some people can spend their days crafting in order to stroke their own insecurities. For some, it appears to be a full-time job.

  Bill Yaner

Interesting contrast between all the high flying rhetoric of this blog and the relatively modest statements of the "All American Muslim" show at the center of the issue.

Fec

[P]seudo-conservatism is among other things a disorder in relation to authority, characterized by an inability to find other modes for human relationship than those of more or less complete domination or submission. The pseudo-conservative always imagines himself to be dominated and imposed upon because he feels that he is not dominant and knows of no other way of interpreting his position. - Richard Hofstadter

If we are to prevail, we must not fear to call evil by its name.

Lex

People who can't agree to that might want to re-examine their commitment to democracy.

Cue "It ain't a democracy, it's a republic!" [meaning: "It OUGHT to be where what I say goes!"] in 3 ... 2 ...

Fec

Witness the multiple infantile lapses in objectivity which define the right-wing authoritarian pseudo-conservative.

polifrog

While the left looks to Europe's social state technocrats for guidance, the right wishes to once again embrace our nation's historical sense of self reliance and turn away from submission and eventual domination to governance.

...

While the Tea Party gathered in protest on weekends in an effort to whittle a bit of power from governance between jobs, Occupy, recognizing the shortest path to domination is through anarchy, set up nearly permanent anarchic encampments which reflected the needs of individuals 'characterized by an inability to find other modes for human relationship than those of more or less complete domination or submission' to governance.

Roch101

"Dave, just confirm for me what I assume everyone else knows, that Home Depot is a big advertiser on that series, so that I can at least see where you're coming from, however silly and ineffectual I see it for whatever it is you expect it to accomplish." -- CP

What's it been, about two or three years now that you've had an opportunity to learn of the logic fallacy that is the straw man? And yet, it remains, to your detriment, your typical response. The issue is not whether Home Depot advertises on the show or not, the issue is whether Lowe's pulled their advertising to console bigots.

cheripickr

I have insider knowledge that Home Depot was too risk averse (bigoted) to sponsor that show in the first place. They are, after all, from even deeper south than Mooresville. They were, in retrospect, a hell of a lot smarter than Lowes. Better to have loved and lost? Guess not.

Mr Blogspot, If you had never discovered your perpetual security blanket excuse "straw man", do you think would you might have ever become emboldened enough to actually craft and express your OWN ideas and opinions?

Robert Reddick

This sideshow is nothing more than a distraction in Lowes marketing war room. Lowes isn't pro-American - they supply their stores almost exclusively from China.

While Bubba celebrates the desire to shop in whites-only stores, a truly innovative, smart corporation would tackle globalization by expanding market share through the characteristics of universal appeal; and by jacking inferior products off the shelves with a rigorous quality agenda that by default would put America first.

China Stores #chinastores are the unsustainable joke on the American marketplace. Maybe. Before it's too late, some CEO somewhere, will grow a pair and decide that the bigger risk (globally) is in destroying faith in America.

Roch101

CP, you may wonder why people throw up their hands and call stupidity stupid or idiocy idiotic, but unless you have special needs, you cannot employ faulty reasoning and logic fallacies and expect thinking people to respect your commentary. When I write that something is stupid, it is not because of disagreement, but because faulty reasoning or contradiction to the facts make it so.

So, when I say that Polifrog wrote something supremely stupid when he offered H.R. Haldeman as an authority from the left or when I observe that your "reasoning" employs straw man arguments those are simply a proper identification of deficient thinking. You can scold me for noticing but that doesn't change the circumstances.

jc

Muslims seem like nice people but the Qur'an sure does seem to teach more than just a little violence:

Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them(2:191)
Make war on the infidels living in your neighboorhood (9:123)
When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them (9:5)
Kill the Jews and the Christians if they do not convert to Islam or refuse to pay Jizya tax (9:29)
Any religion other than Islam is not acceptable (3:85)
The Jews and the Christians are perverts; fight them (9:30)
Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticise Islam. (5:33)
The infidels are unclean; do not let them into a mosque (9:28)
Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods, boiling water; melt their skin and bellies
(22:19)

Do not hanker for peace with the infidels; behead them when you catch them
(47:4)
The unbelievers are stupid; urge the Muslims to fight them (8:65)
Muslims must not take the infidels as friends (3:28)
Terrorise and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur’an
(8:12)
Muslims must muster all weapons to terrorise the infidels (8:60)
The Qur’an certainly proclaims that when the time is appropriate, Muslims must use force to convert the unbelievers to Islam. For the non-Muslims, the alternative to this is to pay the humiliating protection money (Jizya tax) or be killed (by beheading, of course). A militarily dominant Islam, without doubt, precludes the peaceful co-existence with the unbelievers if the Muslims have to abide strictly by the unalterable stipulations of the Qur’an

Another strawman. Sure. But lets call a spade a spade. The teachings of the Qur'an are pretty straight forward and they don't seem friendly towards anyone other than other Muslims.

As far as Lowes pulling ads, it doesn't bother me that they caved and pulled their ads.

Ed Cone

The teachings of Leviticus are pretty straightforward and they don't seem friendly towards anyone.

jc

Post em Ed for all to see

Roch101

Brides who are not virgins, couples who have sex while the woman is menstruating, and women who grab their husband's adversaries by the balls are all roughly treated in the old testament.

So, and I know I am going out on a limb here, maybe we are better off living under our secular laws. Still, have they aired the episode of the show in question where the featured Muslims "make war on the infidels living in their neighborhood?"

sean

the vast *majority* of christians aren't by the letter bible followers, just as the vast *majority* of muslims don't follow the qu'ran to the letter. as soon as you place a text on display to prove guilty over a billion people, you show your prejudice, jc.

greensboro transplant

in the "vast majority" of western nations you cannot be executed for apostasy, sorcery, adultery, or homosexuality. Come to think of it, you can't be executed in any western nation for these practices. Yet, you can in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan, or in any state that practices "islamic law".

So, these beliefs are part and parcel of the belief system of at least a substantial part of the muslim community. and when given a choice in open and fair elections, a large percentage of muslims are choosing groups such as the brotherhood to represent them.

what are we to make of that?


cheripickr

Well, GT, some of us will make of it that they can label and dismiss you as just another bigot, despite the accuracy of your observations in limiting legitimate analogies between Muslim and Christian faiths in regards to violence toward and tolerance of others. Better get used to it. It's an ever-growing club.


jc

"...as soon as you place a text on display to prove guilty over a billion people, you show your prejudice, jc."

When I read these passages from the Qur'an, and see planes piloted by Muslims who took down the twin towers, images of Daniel Pearl being beheaded by Muslims, and another American Muslim at Fort Hood slaughter innocent soldiers, and all were taught from the same qur'an, it's hard not to have just a slight prejudice imho. I wish I didn't have those prejudices but it's something I can't block out. Shame on me. But those images are real and will be with me for the the rest of my life or until dementia sets in.

It's kind of like Jaws syndrome. When the movie first came out, I'm sure many, many, people were a little nervous about swimming in the ocean after seeing a huge, man-eating shark devour young kids. Shame on them. Poor sharks. When you see people being incinterated and beheaded and shot by Muslims in the name of Islam, it kind of makes me feel the same kind of nervousness, especially in other Muslim countries. Probably nothing to worry about but my radar goes up a little. Obviously there are many, many, good and peaceful Muslims but a few bad ones can ruin that warm fuzzy you expect everyone to have.

As far as the passages, they are what they are. I don't know if Muslims are being taught this or not. But it's in there. Seems rather harsh.

Ed Cone

Christians are not bound by Levitical law (although the 10 Commandments still seem to be kind of a big deal), so it's really the Jews (or a series about Jewish life in America, I guess) we need to look out for.

Although Christians, too, often follow scripture selectively.

sean

look, i'm not trying to defend any nation that has laws that kills people for adultery or anything else. i understand that libya is choosing their own path, and it might turn out to be one we wouldn't necessarily choose, but what would you do?

at the same time, though, you can't tell me that the youth in many of these middle-east nations haven't turned to or are turning towards modernity -- iran in particular. islam is going through its own reformation, which is proving to be as disturbing and bloody as the one christianity went though hundreds of years ago. but your perspective also doesn't take into consideration residents of muslim countries like bangladesh, where people aren't stoned or beheaded by law, which is a more modern islamic country. extend that even further into the subject of this TV show -- american muslims.

do you think they're beheading people in dearborn, michigan? or is the problem that you think they're sleeper cells? look, maybe individual lines and passages in the qu'ran have violent or intolerant passages, but muslim friends of mine take the good moral messages and leave the rest behind. kinda like my christian friends...

going deeper, how much do you know about the time period when muhammad wrote the qu'ran? the majority of the "non-believers" he spoke of were fellow arabs who worshiped hundreds of gods in the tangible form of miniature idyllic statues. each home owned one, because they believed these "gods" kept them clothed and fed, all the while the merchants of the city got rich on the trade that came through mecca due to the belief in these false idols of kaaba. muhammed became lost in the mountains, writing the qu'ran at this time. not because of christians, but because of godless capitalists who kept his friends, family and neighbors dirt poor and practically slaves.

what do you know about what muhammad wrote about christ?

"He [Jesus] said: 'I am indeed a servant of God. He has given me revelation and made me a prophet; He has made me blessed wheresoever I be; and He has enjoined on me prayer and charity as long as I live. He has made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable. So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!' Such was Jesus the son of Mary. It is a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is" (19:30-35).

how's that for "hate?"

islam was a complex religion prior to the 18 maniacs with box cutters who hijacked the face of the religion, changing the world in an instant, and it will continue to be complex -- mostly from within as muslims move into modernity. personally, i refuse to paint the entire religion as extremist, just as i refuse to paint all of christianity as extreme as the KKK, the dude who predicted the end of the world a few months back, the nazi movement, these florida bigots, etc.

i guess i've decided that i don't need to pick a side. instead, i'll deal with people and situations on an individual basis.

Andrew Brod

GT, what I make of that is that the votes to which you're referring are taking place in foreign countries. The TLC show is about American Muslims, and it's hardly news (even if it is a surprise to some here) that Muslims here differ from Muslims elsewhere. They consider themselves to be Americans, and that should count for something with us.

I'm a strong supporter of Israel, but I don't care for all of that country's laws, even though one could argue that many of them are "part and parcel of the belief system of at least a substantial part of the [Jewish] community." Yet I don't want all of those laws enacted here in the U.S.

bubba

"...sarcasm certainly garnishes this baited thread."

Thread bait.....perfect description.

polifrog

Roch101:

The issue is not whether Home Depot advertises on the show or not, the issue is whether Lowe's pulled their advertising to console bigots.

Cheri has a point not a strawman.

If HD chose not to advertise on that show at all for the same reasons that Lowes pulled the adds from the show ...

why does Lowes get all the hate when they at first tried to placate?

I suspect it once again has more to do with the liberal sense of theatrics than any true sense of morality.

And to call the point a strawman confirms it.

sean

bullshit. that argument could then be theoretically applied to ace hardware or any other business, let alone hardware establishment.

the question is: why did lowe's make the media buy in the first place?

polifrog

Cheri claims insider info.

I have insider knowledge that Home Depot was too risk averse (bigoted) to sponsor that show in the first place. They are, after all, from even deeper south than Mooresville. They were, in retrospect, a hell of a lot smarter than Lowes. Better to have loved and lost? Guess not.

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