Here's the report [PDF] about North Carolina's "crisis pregnancy centers" that's causing such a stir.

Comments

[justcorbly]

I don't have any objection to people using their money to operate "crisis pregnancy centers", even if they propagate a point of view contrary to mine.

I do object to the license plate gimmick conservative legislators use to avoid using taxpayer funds to back a partisan political agenda. Let me know when I can give the DMV $25 that will be funneled into free contraceptives.

The license plate itself is more than a little saccharine. Not every child leads a peaceful and idyllic life, and it it almost always the fault of the adults in their lives. If you encourage a woman to bear a child who then suffers a life of misery and pain at the hands of that woman, you also bear that responsibility.

[Dave Ribar]

Corbly:

It would be worthwhile to read the report if you haven't. Some of the centers are doing more than just propagating a point of view. NARAL has found numerous instances of deception and dishonesty. There are also instances where the centers give pregnant women advice that can lead to negative consequences. Most of the centers also lack medical staff, but many present themselves as medically knowledgeable. Pregnant women with complications, such as drug/alcohol/tobacco abuse, diabetes, and other problems, don't get the care they or their fetuses might need.

[Dr. Mary Johnson]

"Pregnant women with complications, such as drug/alcohol/tobacco abuse, diabetes, and other problems, don't get the care they or their fetuses might need."

You mean the care that their babies might need?

Before they're aborted at the places where you would send the Mothers for medical advice.

[bubba]

Take Ribar's comment above, substitute "Planned Parenthood" as the subject under discussion, and he would be accurate in his description.

But, as usual, the other side of the story, in which The Agenda isn't supported, doesn't ever seem to get consideration here unless someone takes the time to do so.

Also, notice how corbs' attempt at distraction manages to miss the point (as usual) by preemptively blaming some entity that "forces" the mother to "choose" not to have an abortion.

Given the evidence how Abortion Inc forces abortion, corbs' statement is pretty ludicrous,as usual.

[justcorbly]

>>"...notice how corbs' attempt at distraction manages to miss the point (as usual) by preemptively blaming some entity that "forces" the mother to "choose" not to have an abortion.>

Life is easier when you can just make stuff, up. Eh, Bubba?

We've all come to expect that of you.

I'll leave it to you to point out where I said anything at all resembling what you think I said.

[Dr. Mary Johnson]

Okay, Corbly. In terms of "making stuff up", why don't we try some facts (which I've already shared at both Joe's and the N&R):

The wording of North Carolina's statute on abortion allows babies to be aborted right up until the moment of birth . . . as long as it is done by a licensed physician, and the pregnancy is determined by said physician to pose a risk to the life and health of the Mother.

But that risk is not specifically defined, there's no real oversight in the equation, and you can bet your tail that late term pithing in some of these abortion mills is not as "rare" as some here would like the world to believe. It's not "safe" either.

I daresay, we don't have the real numbers on that because NO ONE is going to fess up.

There's more. As a Pediatrician, I can be sued into oblivion for failing to resuscitate or providing inadequate care to an extreme premie (with viability generally defined as over 24 weeks and 500 grams - and babies have survived younger/smaller than that).

Meanwhile, down the street at Planned Parenthood, a baby of the same gestational age can be pithed and scraped out of its Mother's womb - with the abortionist telling the Mother that her child felt no pain.

Wanna talk about deception and dishonesty?

Indeed, we've all heard about these cases in the news - where a baby aborted in one of the mills lived outside the womb and was then suffocated/pithed/thrown in the trash. But the Mother hears the infant's last cries and then changes her mind as the child dies - and turns around to sues the abortionist she paid to off her child for malpractice and emotional distress - because, I can only surmize, that he/she did not kill the child efficiently enough.

But you-all want to trash pregnancy care centers based on information put out by organizations who mission it is to preserve a woman's "right" to end another life? No one at these "pro-life" centers can "force" a woman into doing anything she doesn't want to do. Abortion is the law of the land. You won that round. You just have not been gracious winners - it's all or nothing - scortched earth and genocide.

In the high schools and clinics these days, sex education is about how to have sex . . . everything goes and anything is cool. Everyone but the child newly-conceived is a victim of circumstance.

IT IS INSANE.

Call me "crazy" - or a "cretin" - or a "terrorist" - or "sick" (and that's just this week at the N&R) - but as far as I am concerned, deliberately aborting a viable (key word, VIABLE) infant without a very, very good medical reason is no better than suffocating a newborn - or dumping him/her in a trash can/toilet - or burying him/her in the back yard - ALL of that being defined as homocide.

There SHOULD be limits on the "procedure" - when and why it is done. And there should be waiting periods similar to those that I'm sure most of the more liberal set here would support if we were talking about buying a gun.

[bubba]

"Life is easier when you can just make stuff, up. Eh, Bubba?"

Life's easier for you if you just pretend you didn't mean what you obviously implied

Seems to work for you every time.

[Steve Harrison]

As a medical professional, Mary, what is your opinion of a "crisis pregnancy center" that has absolutely no medical professionals on staff? Just what pregnancy "crisis" would they be qualified to assist a patient with? Aside from the crisis of being Jewish, that is.

[Ishmael]

I appreciate Dr. Johnson's comments here. If there is one uncomfortable truth that we all have to face, it is that our opinions often come from life experience that is often different from the experience that others have. I can understand Dr. Johnson's passion on this subject and I believe she has made a sound argument against abortion.
But on average talking about abortion does not lead to reasoned arguments because everything about it is tied to the very essence of being human. Even though I myself believe in "choice", I also believe that women should be given every opportunity to make other decisions without being ridiculed or forced into poverty.
We need more women to speak their mind on the subject. Too many men have controlled the dialogue, not that they shouldn't have any voice, but to me the male voices against choice sound more controlling than compassionate. I for one would be in favor of an open and renewed dialogue on the efforts to educate women and men in the safe use of newer forms of birth control and responsible parenting.

[Dr. Mary Johnson]

Steve, the "crisis" is not just a medical one, and these centers do not profess to be medical clinics. They offer emotional support and counseling, on a shoe-string budget - to desperate women who show up on their doorstep. And yes, their emphasis is on encouraging the woman utilizing the resources available to her to keep her baby if she can.

But if you want/need medical care (be it for prenatal care or an abortion), you go to a doctor/clinic, and that's what the centers I know about encourage women to do. Hell, they DRIVE them there.

On the flip side, Planned Parenthood runs a billion-dollar-a-year operation. Drape what they do in purity and goodness if you like. But more abortions equals more money. Recent NC legislation gets in the way of that - slows it down. Zealous abortion advocates are going to do anything they can to demonize/intimidate the other side (again, look no further than the N&R's article on this subject this week).

And/so, I hold "reports" like this suspect. I wonder what would happen if some real undercover work was done at Planned Parenthood/etc.?

[justcorbly]

Mary, I am confused about how my comments could have provoked such a long and heated response.

Show me where I tried to "trash" preganancy centers. If I say I don't agree with someone, is that trashing them?

Show me where I charged anyone with deception and dishonesty.

Show me where I made something up.

I said I have no objection to pregnancy centers that are privately funded.

I said I object to the license tag funding gimmick.

I said, not entirely facetiously, that I'd like to be able to fund free contraceptives by paying money at the DMV like the liceense tag buyers will.

I said not every child lives a happy life, and that the blame for that is almost always an adult. I was deliberatelty suggesting that some people ought not to be parents.

What was there in that short comment that so provoked you?

[Ishmael]

"some people ought not to be parents"

Slippery slope alert. Please hold on to the handrail at all times.

[michele]

Standing O to Mary's comments.

[Steve Harrison]

"these centers do not profess to be medical clinics."

Read the full report, Mary. You've got non-professionals dressing up in scrubs, giving ultra-sounds and other tests, etc. As a doctor, that kind of deception should at least bother you a little bit.

[bubba]

"As a doctor, that kind of deception should at least bother you a little bit."

The "deseption" argument about these centers doesn't fly, particularly when cmpared to the GROSS deception found in virtually EVERY case at a Planned Parenthood "clinic".

One other thing.....corbs, our ever-steady enabler of bad policy and bad agenda advancement, claims "I said I have no objection to pregnancy centers that are privately funded."

What are the chances he objects to the idea that public funding be withdrawn from Planned Parenthood's operations?

[Dr. Mary Johnson]

And here we go. My response was "long and heated". Unjustly provoked. Poor picked-upon, pitiful Corbly.

Did the truth in my passionate comment bother you? Does it remotely trouble you (as it troubles me) that in this country, supposedly endowed with liberty and justice for ALL, there is NO equality in the abortion equation for viable infants?

I read the report, Steve. And as I said, I find it suspect. Shine the SAME microscope on the much-better-funded PP (which is supposed to provide medical care), and see what you find.

GOBS AND GOBS of ugly.

But let's hammer on a handful of poorly-funded pregnancy crisis center trying to save a few lives - against the wave of now-politically-correct genocide.

"Some people ought not to be parents". Indeed. Holding tightly onto the handrails, some should not have pets. What I see almost EVERY day in my day-to-day would make some of your high-minded toes curl. Of course, to talk about it in honest terms makes me, "crazy", "stupid", a "terrorist", a "cretin", a "racist", blah, blah, blah. But whatever I see does NOT mean we should indiscriminately kill the unborn for profit's and convenience's sake.

I'm thinking my passion might be explained, in part, by the fact that I was fired/professionally shiskabobbed/legally evicerated & swindled because I put on on Board-certified-in-Pediatrics thinking-cap, literally pushed aside a nimrod-in-scrubs who did not know what he was doing and saved a newborn's life . . . and, in Greensboro's Cone-owned ether, I am supposed to sit down, shut up and get over it.

Doesn't bother any of you one bit.

Thanks Michelle.

[Andrew Brod]

Ed, could I rent some of that ether?

[Dr. Mary Johnson]

It's too THICK, Andrew. You can't cut it.

[Dave Ribar]

The advice that some of these centers are giving includes recommending that women wait their pregnancies out a while to see if a natural miscarriage occurs. This is bad on every imaginable dimension, because the woman is unlikely to get medical treatment--one way or the other--while she's waiting. If the woman eventually decides to try to bring the pregnancy to term, the lack of prenatal medical care risks harm to her and her possible child. If the woman eventually decides to terminate pregnancy, there is a good chance that the delay will cause her to face a riskier procedure.

These actions are neither emotional support nor medically sound counseling. Their irresponsibility, danger, and immorality stand independent of anyone's position on abortion and of any other agency's bad behavior.

These harms notwithstanding, respect for human life includes respect for the rationality and humanity of the pregnant woman. Deception and lies are not consistent with such respect. The ethical basis for the requirement of informed consent in medical procedures comes the principle of respect for persons. Thus, the actions of these centers is not even consistent with their professed "respect for life."

[Steve Harrison]

Give it up, professor. For a lot of these folks, a woman who is contemplating terminating her pregnancy doesn't deserve any respect, much less any actually useful information.

If they float, they're a witch; if they sink, they're in God's hands.

[Brian Clarey]

I, for one, find it remarkable that Dr. Mary didn't bring up her 10-year-old case until her fourth comment.

And I suggest that if you think abortion is murder, then you shouldn't get one.

[A.C.]

"I, for one, find it remarkable that Dr. Mary didn't bring up her 10-year-old case until her fourth comment.

And I suggest that if you think abortion is murder, then you shouldn't get one."

This post made my day. Thank you.

[Dr. Mary Johnson]

A.C. it's interesting that while you profess to have "respect" for women and their choices, you still call me "Dr. Mary" instead of Dr. Johnson . . . and you mock the one I made almost 14 years ago.

Nice. Does it make you feel good about yourself . . . superior, perhaps?

I suppose the lectures on respect and ethics and "possible children" also falls a little flat (Dave & Steve) because (1) based on what I've seen in our very broken medical system, I don't think pregnant women are generally as stupid or gullible or susceptable to bad advice (medical or otherwise) as you boys make them out to be here, and (2) I'm well versed in the treatment you-all dish out to those you think witches.

The fact remains (Brian), that in this state, if you're a woman and you want an abortion and you don't think it's murder, you can get one - for any reason and at any gestational age. While they might be avble to slow you down, no one can stop you if that's what you really want.

"Liberty and justice for all" being a lie for the viable unborn . . . who have no rights and get no respect in the equation.

Humanity kid of flies out the window (or more accurately into a waste bucket) there.

[Dr. Mary Johnson]

P.S. I never had children (reference my "ten year old case" if you have questions about why) . . . and I cannot have them now.

Funny, eh?

So please. DO continue the smug snark - and the not-so-subtle pile-on.

[A.C.]

"A.C. it's interesting that while you profess to have "respect" for women and their choices, you still call me "Dr. Mary" instead of Dr. Johnson . . . and you mock the one I made almost 14 years ago."

When did I call you anything? I don't even know who you are. I didn't know you existed until this thread came to life. I was referencing a quote made by Brian. Clearly, you've yet to master the art of the quotation.

[bubba]

"So please. DO continue the smug snark - and the not-so-subtle pile-on."

We have learned that's what to expect from Usual suspects here when they can't debate on the basis of facts and logic. I find that particularly amusing in the cases of those who profess some sort of academic pedigree. Defending their various theses must have been terrifying for them. Apparently, "academic rigor" isn't what it used to be.

Smug snark and pile-on's all they've got.

As usual.....

[Andrew Brod]

A.C., seriously, just walk away.

[A.C.]

Noted with thanks, Dr. Brod.

[bubba]

"A.C., seriously, just walk away."

Works for you every time you need to cover up yet another academic and intellectual failure, doesn't it?

[Dr. Mary Johnson]

A.C. you USED Brian's quote did you not? With Approval, yes?

Maybe what I've not mastered yet - after going on seven years - is the art of gang-play. And maybe, just maybe, when one is the target of the ridicule & abuse, you-all sound alike after a while.

Gentlemen, for ANY of you to base an argument on "respect" for women reaches the highest rafters of hypocrisy.

Apart from my own example/experience in this blogosphere (already cited - and believe me, I've walked away on a number of occasions), I'll reference the example of Rachel Hunter.

Now, you (and I) may not agree with everything Rachel said or did during her campaign for a seat on the bench, you may event think she's a nut-job (you'd be wrong), but you've got to give that woman a whole lot of credit for standing up to the North Carolina State Bar on the issue of free speech - free political speech to be exact.

And what did you-all fine upstanding defenders of free speech do when that happened (despite all of your noble rhetoric about accountability and transparenty and social justice for all - even when they disagree with you)? Did you raise even the tiniest whimper in protest at the despicable tactics being used against her? Nope. You abandoned her to the cabals that have made the legal system in this state the corrupt joke that it is.

But some of you will trade secret passwords with a cyberstalker.

If you boys in your towers want to complain about Wall Street, perhaps you ought to first look no further than your own mirrors - and the people/deeds you've shielded here at home.

My second comment in this thread unsettled and unnerved several of you - because the point I bring up (about infant viability) is a long-ginored-by-just-about-everybody issue that, if it were addressed by the medical and legal community, would turn the abortion industry totally upside down.

Back in 1973, when it became legal to kill them in the womb, a lot of these premies probably would not have survived.

It's a classic instance of the law not having caught up with real life . . . or science.

But please do, boys, lecture me on ethics and morality.

DO walk away. Because you've got nothing.

And I am done here.