If anyone challenges you for examples of the ugliness in this campaign season, the battery on Greensboro's own Joe Killian provides a fine example.

Some of the reactions are interesting, too -- not sure they reflect political anger, or more general issues, but they're lovely all the same:

Jeff Sykes, a former journalist from Reidsville: "It made my day to read about Joe getting kicked in the leg at a Sarah Palin rally."

Sam Spagnola, an attorney from Oak Ridge: "I wasn't there to determine whether it was deserved."

Killian himself is the bigger man: The communications director for the NC Republican Party e-mailed this morning to say he was sorry about this and it should never have happened. I thanked him and said -- you know, there are crazies in any large crowd. Not his fault, but nice of him to write.

Comments

[John Burns]

Regardless of how many people were actually at the Palin rally, it appears that the crowd fit in Elon's baseball stadium.

You could fit SEVERAL of Elon's baseball stadiums in the first 1/3 of the crowd Obama drew by the Gateway Arch in St. Louis.

[Spag]

Ed there was no conspiracy theory on my site, nor was there anything to "pick apart". I challenge you to prove otherwise. I simply wrote down the sequence of events and my analysis of them. In case you don't get it, you don't have to agree with my opinion - but that isn't a "credibility" issue, that's a disagreement. You're either too stupid to know the difference or simply engaging in your trademark dishonesty.

Your credibility is the one that is in the gutter because of your blatant hypocrisy, you despicable and dishonest little man.

Now comes the part when your little group of sycophants chimes in and attacks me for speaking evil of their leader....

[Tony Wilkins]

Ed, my simple minded estimate of the event was 10,000+ based on the fact that the stands held 2000 people.
We'll have to disagree that a "mistake" of that magnitude relates more to credibility than just an error. Couple that with Killian's description of all the fat bearded rednecks there (don't remember the exact words) and the bias debate escalates.
Although I personally believe the kicking incident happened Killian brought a lot of the doubt upon himself by the way he handled the situation. Binker's ranting didn't help.
You and scharrison like to point out that I'm the Media Chairman for the GC GOP although my comments came directly from a personal blog. I appreciate you including my later comments as an update to your post. scharrison has posted misleading information at Sad&BlueNC.com.
Is Joe K.'s 15 minutes over yet?

[Tony Wilkins]

Good point John Burns.
Population of Elon, NC: 7000.
Population of St. Louis: 2.8 million.

[Mick]

Just watched the video on John Robinson's site about the arrest of the protestor at Sarah Palins rally. Seemed kinda tame to me. I still dont get counter protestors though. And of course he was of the "no blood for oil crowd". Hippie wannabe.

What really caught me though was the lack of fat, redneck, country music listening, flannel shirt wearin dudes seen in the video. They must of all been somewhere else in the crowd. Still it was a nice backhanded stereotyping job by Joe K.

Dont think Joe should apologize for calling the perp a "12 sandwich eating prick". However, saying there were so many similar dudes in the crowd the perp could not be discerned from the run of the mill fat republican was kind crappy.

Like Joe says it was probably just his left over temper. Not a piss poor attitude about Sarah Palin supporters bleeding through.

Free Milne Free Milne Free Milne!

[John Burns]

Oh, good point, Tony. I forgot about that hermetically sealed bubble that kept people from the 2.5 million people living in metropolitan areas 30 minutes on either side of Elon College from attending the rally.

How silly of me.

[Ed Cone]

Sam: "there was no conspiracy theory on my site, nor was there anything to 'pick apart.'"

Dude, this is terrible! Apparently someone has your password, because there is a post at your blog alleging that Daily Kos had the story before it went live on Binker's blog -- claims the author was forced to retract when readers explained the concept of time zones and timestamps.

And the writer at your blog -- this mysterious person who puts "posted by Spag" on his work -- also pretends there's some serious question about whether the kicking incident happened at all.

No wonder you're upset. Whoever writes your blog has been posting this stuff under your name, making you look like a conspiracy theorist and a fool.

Whoever you are, "Spag," just stop! Let Sam be Sam!

[scharrison]

"Although I personally believe the kicking incident happened Killian brought a lot of the doubt upon himself by the way he handled the situation."

And you brought a lot of heat on yourself from your stupid comment at Binker's blog. You can claim it was a joke until you're blue in the face, but that kite just won't fly, Tony. You saw an opportunity to float a lie that might revive your crusade against Joe, and you took it without thinking real hard about the ramifications of said lie. And now that hundreds of people have read your lie, you're going to have to live with it.

[Spag]

Ed, unlike you I corrected that mistake in the timing when it was pointed out and that hardly qualifies as being "picked apart". Has the crowd controversy been "picked apart"? What about the question of the use of photos? Of course your little group of ass kissers here will take whatever argument you feed them, and if "picked apart" is what you say it is, then I'm sure that's what it will be. But you would get an "F" in any objective forum.

My questions were not about whether Joe got kicked but whether he may have been more hostile then he let on. Obviously you lacked the intelligence to figure that out especially considering I repeated it several times in the post and in the comments. Even that was only in response to the deliberate misrepresentation of my comments on your blog. You tried to make it appear as if McCain/Palin supporters (me & Sykes) were endorsing what happened for political reasons when that isn't true at all. But lying isn't new to you, jackass.

Now I'll sit back and let your little group of fans can come rushing in to your defense.

[Brian Baute]

I think I've got a pretty good attendance estimate. But first, my methodology:

There are about 400 seats at Latham Park - the listed capacity of 2000 includes the grassy areas down the baselines. The largest crowd ever there for a baseball game was about 1800 people versus Carolina a couple years ago, and the baseline areas were PACKED for that game.

I was at the rally but got there late, just as Hank Jr was taking the stage. So I was in the back of the crowd and walked around a lot. The infield grass was packed with some people spilling into the infield dirt.

That's roughly a 90x90 area packed with people, plus a smattering around the outfield, plus a good number down the 3rd base line.

Let's call it 1000 people in the stands and surrounding area.

I've always heard a basketball court can seat about 1000 people, and a baseball infield is about the same size as 2 basketball courts. So let's say 1000 people on the infield.

Let's say another 1000 people down the 3rd base line.

And another 1000 people in the outfield.

And another 500 people outside the stadium (protestors, vendors, media, etc.).

That's roughly 5500 people. Make is +/- 1500 either way and there's an estimated crowd of 4000-7000 that I feel very confident about.

[Spag]

But it's 2000 because Joe said it was. Any variance from that line will simply be "picked apart" because Ed said so. As a result of your taking issue with what Joe said and Ed's endorsement of it, you have no "credibility".

Ed is declared the winner by the echo chamber and lives to fight (lie, misrepresent, display hypocrisy) another day.

[Tony Wilkins]

Pat yourself on the back John.
Please do continue to compare a presidential candidate's rally to that of a vice presidential candidate's rally.
As is the liberal way, do whatever makes you feel good, regardless of facts.

[Margaret Banks]

Grrr. Can't believe this debate is still raging. And yet, here I go. Two things:

1) In 1992, during Bush-Clinton, President Bush came to Thomasville, where I was a reporter/clerk. In my story, I reported whatever crowd estimate the police gave me. And local Democratic party officials went NUTS. They said I was purposefully misleading the public, blah, blah. Don't you people get it: Everyone attributes motive to the media. This has NOTHING to do with Joe's personal politics.

2) I read Tony's comment about the leg-kicker kicking Joe over the Palin porn blog, and immediately knew it was a joke. I can understand if people don't think it was a funny joke, or if they think it was inappropriate. But it was clearly a joke.

OK. Back to lurking.

[Ed Cone]

BB, thnx for an interesting analysis.

"Any variance from that line will simply be 'picked apart' because Ed said so." Other than the fact that I'm the one who originally invoked (and linked) the seating capacity of the stadium to question the 2,000 estimate, and who guestimated the number at 5,000, and who later cited the 6,000 + tickets issued and called the 2,000 number a mistake, exactly so.

[Small Correction]

Joe didn't say 2,000. He gave the only official estimate available that day. Even if there were 7,000 people (1,000 more tickets than the party says it handed out), that estimate was still closer to the truth than the 15,000 printed by the Burlington Times News without any attribution. No one seems to be demanding they attribute that and one seems to have gotten it right.

[Tony Wilkins]

Brian, now we're getting somewhere. I had expected Ribar to chime in with a statistical way to estimate the crowd. I agree with most of what you are saying above except for the 1000 in the outfield.
Take a look at photo #29 on the N&R website here. You can see the press platforms at the back of the infield grass.
Now look at the crowd photographed behind the press platforms (that's just the third base side so it's only one third of the outfield, that's the back of the infield grass at the small metal fence) that extends almost to the outfield wall. That has to be well above 1000 people. More like 3000?
Your opinion Brian?

And thanks Margaret. I miss you.

[Spag]

Yes, Ed and you have the blog post to prove it. Now how exactly does your agreeing with me NOW that the N&R crowd estimate was faulty (never mind the initial report that had no count of the crowd at all) result in me being "picked apart" over the central thrust of my argument? Be careful, you are talking yourself in circles like a dog chasing his tail. Did your dad go to Haverford, or did he just buy your way in?

[Ed Cone]

Sam, I've been consistent in questioning the crowd estimate since my first comment on the subject two days ago.

The part of your post that got picked apart was the conspiracy theory about Kos having the story first, and the timing of Binker and Killian's posts -- all of which was quickly discredited by your readers.

The campaign has been endless, and there's still a while to go. Maybe people should relax a bit?

[Tony Wilkins]

11,000 Tickets Distributed for Palin Event.

[Spag]

There was no conspiracy theory Ed. But if you repeat it enough times, maybe a few morons will believe you.

[Daniel]

Jerry, I've cited you and appreciated your work. But coming after Joe with this ridiculous tone gives me a different perspective on you as a man.

Sad. Pointless. Inevitable.

[Tony Wilkins]

Coming after Joe with thorough, investigative, pertinent questions?
Sounds like someone the N&R could use.
Also sounds like molded raisins on Joe's part for not answering.

[Brian Baute]

Tony,

Parts of the infield dirt were thick with people, but most of that was sparse and none of the outfield grass was crowded. Watch the video at the Elon Pendulum (student newspaper) site to see how much open area was available on the 3rd base side of the infield dirt. http://www.elon.edu/pendulum/Story.aspx?id=1134.

Brian

[Dave Ribar]

Tony:

Heard the shout-out from Taipei and wanted to see what all the excitement was about. Turns out it's just the usual Republicans turning their back on the Constitution and law and order when they disagree with someone's opinion.

Sam:

Are you really promising to leave after the election, or is your statement like those pro-life planks in the Republican platform (something to be conveniently forgotten in the second week of November)?

Joe:

It's terrible that these clowns can't give an unequivocal condemnation of what happened.