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Mar 27, 2007

Comments

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Anglico

BlueNC had a stalker who threatened me personally a few weeks ago. We ended up banning his IP address, only to discover he took another approach and started bombarding our site - causing all sorts of reliability problems.

sean coon

chris is over the top for many people's tastes, and the mock sites he started definitely created a venue for someone to be a sick bastard, but unless kathy has some sort of, i don't know, proof(!) that locke actually wrote the offending posts in question (he claims to not have done so), she needs to apologize.

yeah, i know she's traumatized. a lot of people would be in a similar situation. but pointing wildly at people -- and people who link to people that she feels to be guilty -- is not a proper response.

it's just another case of words having consequences.

Ginger Bush

I've gotten pornographic emails from someone who sent me a picture of a woman with clothespins all over her nipples. Yes, it is disturbing and it does scare you. When someone makes sexual comments like that or goes and does something like this women have every right to be concerned, and to speak out against it.

Sean, you are way off the mark here. She does not need to appologize, she needs to be appologized to. And I hope she finds out who it is.

Ginger Bush

I've gotten pornographic emails from someone who sent me a picture of a woman with clothespins all over her nipples. Yes, it is disturbing and it does scare you. When someone makes sexual comments like that or goes and does something like this, women have every right to be concerned, and to speak out against it. And, thank goodness, there are men who agree.

I hope Kathy finds out who did this.

Ginger Bush

Ed, sorry about the extra post, I thought I was commenting on another site and didn't realize I was posting here.

Jim Rosenberg

Don't jump to conclusions. I received an e-mail from David Wharton which contained dozens of pictures of him all dressed up like The Ancients with clothespins on his nipples, but it was intended for Jim Melvin and he just filled in the wrong Jim in his Outlook.

David Wharton

Actually Jim, those really were for you.

Lunch next week?

Jim Rosenberg

!

Ginger Bush

Rosenburg,

This is not funny, it is a serious issue. You have an incredibly warped sense of humor. Many are really put off by this, and for good reason.

You have no respect for women, you could not have given your callous comment. And Wharton, you are right in there with him in that department. There is outrage all over the web because of the remarks made to Kathy, yet in Greensboro, these are the kind of men we have blogging and answering this post, men who think it is funny. There is something deeply flawed and fundamentally wrong with that, and with each of you.

Jim Rosenberg

Ginger: Agreed on all counts.

David Wharton

Ginger, I'm sorry to have offended you.

Unfortunately, these kinds of threats are nothing new, so perhaps I'm a bit inured to their shock value. Plus I'm habitually insensitive. And I'm incapable of letting Jim humiliate me in public without some kind of riposte.

Ed Cone

More here and here.

sean coon

ginger, ed made a spot-on observation: kathy sierra reacted to the situation. and i understand why she reacted. i really do. i'm not trying to turn this around on her by any means. so please do not try to head down that path.

what i am saying is that for her to accuse specific people of being the culprit(s) who made these horrible comments, posts, emails, etc., she needs to have all of her ducks lined up to do so -- both from a legal and ethical perspective.

did you read the email from alan herrell (the head lemur)? i don't know if he's telling the truth or lying through his teeth, but does kathy?

the sites that locke and herrell participated were both juvenile and mean spirited, but the last i heard, being mean spirited and juvenile aren't crimes.

i'm not in kathy's shoes -- a high profile woman (and mother) in an industry that is dominated by men -- but i'd like to think that i'd pause for clarification before reacting with accusations that lead to the releasing of the blog hounds. i agree with the majority of her post regarding the despicable manner in which she was treated and scared shitless, i just don't agree with the implicating language she used.

now, if she (or the cops) are able to out the culprits responsible for these threats, i'll be the first one to participate in a blog swarm to further chop out the knees of the miscreant's reputation.

fyi, i've never met chris locke in person (though we've crossed paths in links and comment threads) and i had never even heard of alan herrell until this incident. i've also linked to, but never met kathy sierra.

Ginger Bush

Sean,

I have no interest in hashing this out any further, what I read and saw on Kathy's site was quite enough, thank you. Those who enjoy this can go right ahead, I have positive energy to direct elsewhere. I have no idea who is responsible, I have no idea who any of these people are, nor do I wish to know them. Their comments are quite enough. And as far as blog swarms, they come and go, I've had and have animals that show better sense and breeding. Glad to know you woudn't participate.

sean coon

a kathy sierra and chris locke coordinated post.

Ed Cone

Orcinus weighs in here.

sean coon

commenter, mrs. robinson:

[...] "My own take on this is that many bloggers (and Sierra may have been one of them) have been much too reluctant to set boundaries about what will and won't be allowed on their comments threads. Nobody wants to discourage free speech. But we also don't want trolls pissing on the rugs of our Web homes. Many bloggers (Dave included) have finally decided that they do have the right to set standards for behavior in their spaces, and no longer apologize for booting people who aren't making positive contributions to the conversation." [...]

amen.

Ginger Bush

Sean,

Have read more, at Kathy's site and elsewhere, and am, as I said, glad you didn't participate in accusations against specific people. That was not the intention of my post, to blame anyone that wasn't responsible. The people who came out appalled at the way she was portrayed and treated aren't blog hounds (swarms) as you call them, any more than the people who said she should be sure before making accusations. People simply swarm to issues that are contentious. And many times it's the same people who post over and over, picking at each other, sometimes in really profane and ugly ways.

Does it not disturb you that men treat women in this fashion? You appeared not to notice that comments were made in this thread that were demeaning to me, to women also. Why did you not address this? Women have the right to respond, to be frightened by this kind of material that comes their way, to worry, be upset and to speak out against it.

And Ed, you make no comment in this regard either. Did you find Jim's remark appropriate?

Ed Cone

Jim's remark would not be helpful or sensitive in any sort of serious discussion of this issue, and his attempt at humor does seem out of place in this thread.

Jim Rosenberg

Ginger wins. I sent her a non-confrontational personal e-mail with my point of view. She hasn't replied. Now, she's made repeated calls up the chain at my work -- all to complain about a random joke in a blog comment. Not worth it. Ginger, I won't be commenting here again and I've withdrawn my column in the newspaper this week while I consider whether to continue that in light of your tactics. I surrender. This is insane.

PotatoStew

It's interesting that Ginger would try to intimidate Jim by hassling his employer, in light of this statement on her biography:

"Ginger believes in the right of free speech, the right to speak ones' mind without fear."

Ed Cone

Jim, I hope you will not be intimidated and kept from commenting here or elsewhere by Ginger's actions, which as reported are highly disproportionate and over the line.

Jim Rosenberg

I don't want a debate on this. I don't claim the right. I want to be left alone. Don't fan the flames or advocate on my behalf, Stew or anyone else. If this is how people react to good-natured joking, I am out of that line of business, period. Just leave me alone.

Ginger Bush

No, Jim, you win. You win the right to demean me publicly and call it a joke. You win the right to take a woman humiliated and act as if it is fine to do so. You win the right to say you don't want a debate on this and then create one.

Potato Stew also wins. He wins the right to harass and intimidate me, or any woman, with a statement about free speech when I speak out against the abuse.

And Ed wins too. He wins the right to decide what is, for women, highly disproportionate and over the line, by the employ of that official word reported. He wins the right to sanction the abuse, and to couch it accordingly.

David Hoggard

Unbelievable...

I may be mistaken, but I believe this is a Greensboro first and I see little difference between Ginger's reported actions and the original subject of this post.

Sure does knock the crap out of all my arguments against anonymous posting.

Ginger, you are a real piece of work and a hypocrite to boot. Nothing... I MEAN NOTHING, gave you the right to do what you did.

mick

my .02 = same same

Nothing more to add. Sad, sad BS.

Fec

OMG. Peace, everyone.

Ed Cone

"Reported" means "as reported by Jim," Ginger. In other words, I had only his version of the story about calling his bosses, and not yours, so I noted that in the comment. Did you in fact contact his place of work over the blog comment he made?

Sue

To the best of my knowledge and experience, this is not the first time "Ginger" has made phone calls to related or vaguely related people in an attempt to bother or stymie people with whom she does not agree by trying to cause them personal reputation injury or similar. It's her M.O. and it's pathetic. (And it doesn't work. Twice, now.)

sean coon

so ed, can we get a ban? i mean, if that doesn't fit the bill, what does?

whack_job.

Ginger Bush

Sue, Sean, Ed, David,

I care not one whit for your opinions, the issue here was degradation of women, the comment by Jim was awful and highly inappropiate, as was Wharton's response. Your Mo's include not looking fairly at this and blaming me instead of those responsible. And I'm a piece of work? A hypocrite? Hardly. Apply your labels to yourselves.

sean coon

ginger, did you or did you not contact jim's employer?

Ed Cone

Jim made a flippant comment. I said, "Jim's remark would not be helpful or sensitive in any sort of serious discussion of this issue, and his attempt at humor does seem out of place in this thread." I don't think there's much disagreement about that.

But to take a single lame joke as a serious personal attack, ignore his attempt to communicate with you, and contact his place of work to complain about him?

That just seems way out of proportion, and that is what sparked the reactions.

Ginger Bush

Also Ed, Jim's comment was way more than flippant or lame. If his comment had coarsely mimicked anything other than exactly what I wrote I that I was appalled and frightened by then it would not have been a personal attack. That made it one. Why would I respond to an email after he wrote something like that?

Your own defense of him is nothing more than cronyism of the worst sort.

Ed Cone

I criticized Jim's comment, Ginger, and also questioned the proportionality of calling his place of work over it.

You saw it as a much more serious incident that did anyone else who has weighed in on the subject.

sean coon

ginger, i see that you won't answer the question as to whether or not you called jim's employer.

Ginger Bush

That doesn't make me wrong and them right.

The subject was serious, anyone objective who read Kathy's blog and my comments would have seen that. Jim's comments were humiliating.

And cronyism was and is the 'weight' you refer to. Not a fair balance by any means.

Jerry Garcia

Ah, the TDBS defense. Brilliant.

Points to Ginger.

sean coon

consider jim wrong. now, did you call his employer?

Ginger Bush

Ok, annoymous poster, Jerry Garcia. I have no idea what TBDS is, but I clicked on your link and find you are Fecund Stench, or Jeff Martin. I also understand you wrote a post about me on your site, mocking me, and took it down.

You need real help, Jeff, and I hope you get it.

Bubba

Meanwhile, Ginger has still not answered the question on the table.

What shall we make of that?

Ginger Bush

Oh Ok Stench, now I get it-

From Google

TDBS-Urban Dictionary: terminal dumb bitch syndrome

More degradation of women- from the man who obviously has a problem with women, a man who states that he is "a man living in a world where men are no longer needed".

My speaking out against pornagraphic abuse aimed at women generates this kind of response, from Jim first and now you.

You really really need help Jeff, and I hope you get it.

Kirk D.

This thread is making me uncomfortable.

Its obvious that anyone that speaks in opposition to the original issue, or now to Ginger in general, risks being thrown into this so called "blogger witch hunt", as I probably will now as well since I'm merely bringing up this fact.

For the record, a single post by Stew here in no way equals "harassment" or "intimidation". The original joke by Jim was in bad taste, but also, in no way warrants he himself being harassed at his place of work. Before you go making blanket statements Ginger, think deeply about what you are trying to say and if your statements are hypocritical in nature before making them. From where I sit, they are.

David Wharton

Just for the record:

After I apologized in the comments above to Ginger, my department head told me she had received an angry phone call from someone named Ginger Bush.

I called Ginger on the phone, apologized again, and agreed that I had commented inappropriately. She accepted my apology.

Ginger later called my department head again, and at some point called my dean at least once. She told my department head that she was going to call the chancellor of the university, too, though I don't know whether she did that.

Please note: this comment is not an attack on Ginger or an attempt to rehash the issue of the propriety of Jim's or my comments. It is simply what happened.

I'm posting this information after a lot of thinking about it, and with real fear that it might touch off another round of phone calls to my employer.

But I thought other commenters should know what can happen.

Like Jim, I think I'm done commenting. Too risky. Adios!

David Boyd

TDBS. First hit from Google.

Sometimes we find what we want don't we, Ginger.

Bubba

Who's next in line for the Ginger Jihad's wrath?

Ed Cone

David, I hope you will continue posting comments here and at other blogs. I hope Jim will, too. At the same time I understand the seriousness of this situation, and I'm very sorry that it happened here.

Laurie

Okay, Ginger is way out of line. She is now hurting people because she can't take a joke on SOMEONE ELSE'S BLOG COMMENTS.

David, if you need back-up, you know where to find me.

Ginger, please get some counseling to deal with your anger.

Ginger Bush

So David, what is your point? That people are calling Dianne Bellamy Small a terminal dumb bitch, saying that she has terminal dumb bitch syndrome behind her back? That's the only definition I could find for it. If it doesn't stand for that, then what does it stand for?

I guess it depends on your idea of a joke Laurie. It was sexually degrading humor at my expense. Develop some sensitivity. And take your own advice- counseling, but I think sensitivity training might be a better option.

I oppose the degradation of women, am frightened by pornographic email, don't appreciate being humiliated in public and made a joke of when I was frightened and scared by the experience I related. When I state that what happened to Kathy had in part happened to me, believe these statements by Jim and David don't reflect well on what I hope are the standards of both the News and Record and UNCG, and felt these institutions would probally not want themselves associated with these kind of comments, a professor did make them, as well as a columnist -hence my complaints, I become a Jihadist in Bubba's eyes. Bubba, maybe you should go back in the military, or get some help.

And David W, I initially called your department head before I saw you had 'appologized', not after.

And it never was a "blogger witch hunt" Kirk, those are your words. Disagreeing is one thing, but posting what Jim did with David's response is quite another, given what had happened to Kathy. Those kind of actions were in essence repeated here, by Jim and David.

David Boyd

TDBS are her initials.

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