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« Free speech, Egyptian style | Main | At the Kodak »

Feb 26, 2007

Comments

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David Hoggard

Interesting juxtaposition to say the least.

Jeffrey Sykes

Ed:

I think it's a little more than disingenuous for you to cut and paste two entirely unrelated comments into one long quote.

If you read the entire piece, Joe is raising lots of ethical concerns about matters in no way related to punishing "young African-American men" before they are convicted of a crime.


Fred Gregory

Thank you Jeffrey. I was about to call bullshit on Ed for the same reason and was in fact on the keynoard when your comment came in. I'll stop and let Joe speak for himself but you are sooo right. I hope David Hoggard is not suggesting what it appears he is. Geez Louise !

Ed Cone

It's not one long quote, JS; There are two quotes, marked by two separate links, on related subjects of justice and public attitudes.

Bubba

"There are two quotes, marked by two separate links, on related subjects of justice and public attitudes."

Neither of which is inconsistent with each other, despite the implication in your placement, and the comment by Hoggard.

The CA

Ed's attempted effort to make Guarino look like a hypocrite is foolishness.

Joe's first quote addresses people who have been accused, but NOT convicted of wrongdoing and the presumption of innocence that goes along with it.

The second quote deals with people in jail, and Joe makes it clear he is talking about people who have been convicted as opposed to merely charged.

One can believe strongly in the presumption of innocence pre-trial, and believe in tough punishment post-conviction. This is an old-school conservative position, and there is nothing contradictory or mutually exclusive about either.

Bubba

"This is an old-school conservative position, and there is nothing contradictory or mutually exclusive about either."

I am sure Ed is well aware of that.

So let us then discuss the actual reason for the post.

Ed Cone

I wonder (as I commented at Joe's) if his pronounced bias toward punishment for those found guilty (as enunciated in the second quote) will extend to the cops if they are found guilty, despite his strong sentiment in their favor (as enunciated in the first quote).

And I marvel at his statement that incarceration rates for young black men are a concern of "the Simkins crowd as well as other prominent black leaders nationwide," as if those incarceration rates are not a concern for others, and I note the irony that young black men frequently feel pre-judged in our society and not innocent until proven guilty.

Bubba

And yet once again, the implication by association.

Good work, Ed.

I suspect this is a backdoor personal attack on Joe Guarino, regardless of the way you organize and phrase your words.

The CA

"and I note the irony that young black men frequently feel pre-judged in our society and not innocent until proven guilty."

You say that now, but where was it in your original post?

I think Joe's point is that the concern about incarceration should be relative to the crime and not the color of the convicted. Race shouldn't be a factor in who gets incarcerated.

There is no contradiction or irony at all in what Joe wrote.

Cara Michele

"Race shouldn't be a factor in who gets incarcerated."

True. And yet it is.

Ed Cone

I try to write for an audience that doesn't need everything spelled out for them, Sam.

I'm willing to explain it after class in the comments, but do try to keep up.

Cara Michele

"I wonder (as I commented at Joe's) if his pronounced bias toward punishment for those found guilty (as enunciated in the second quote) will extend to the cops if they are found guilty..."

Which cops? Team Wray or Team Hinson? That's two different questions, isn't it? And not just for Joe...

Ed Cone

It is interesting that the presumption of innocence afforded Wray's team does not seem to be extended by all observers to Hinson and James.

Bubba

"It is interesting that the presumption of innocence afforded Wray's team....."

By whom?

Certainly not you......

Ed Cone

I seem to be one of the few people in Greensboro willing to say that I don't know what happened, although I have said repeatedly that I've seen no evidence that David Wray is a racist, and that some of the reporting on Hinson raises suspicion.

I understand that to you, Bubba, an unwillingness to damn Mitch and burn the RMA report is the same thing as announcing a vendetta against Wray. But that does not make it so.

Cara Michele

"I seem to be one of the few people in Greensboro willing to say that I don't know what happened, although I have said repeatedly that I've seen no evidence that David Wray is a racist, and that some of the reporting on Hinson raises suspicion."

I concur.

"I understand that to you, Bubba, an unwillingness to damn Mitch and burn the RMA report is the same thing as announcing a vendetta against Wray. But that does not make it so."

Mitch seems to have the respect and admiration of the people who worth with and for him and that says a lot to me, and I've found him to be an intelligent, knowledgeable and personable guy who seems to really love his job -- some good qualities for a City Manager, IMHO. (I haven't read the RMA report, so I can't comment on whether or not it's burn-worthy. *grin*)

The CA

No, Ed you foolishly tried to draw a parallel between two completely different ideas. You must graduating a class of morons, because even when you spell it out, it doesn't make any sense.

I wonder who has more experience in this area, you or me?

RE: your last comment. There are plenty of people who admit they don't know what happened. A lot of them are bloggers. You're not special or particularly unbiased and worthy of special esteem for that.

And Cara, I respectfully disagree that race is a deciding factor in who gets locked up. Rather, whether you are guilty or not is the dominant factor. The race theory of incarceration is post hoc ergo proctor hoc. The disproportionate number of black males incarcerated isn't because they have been wrongly convicted or because they have been singled out. Rather it has to do with societal and cultural reasons that nobody wants to discuss openly, so instead they use discrimination as a scapegoat.

jc

by ec- "It is interesting that the presumption of innocence afforded Wray's team does not seem to be extended by all observers to Hinson and James."

Other than lying to Mitch, what are the specific charges against him?

I will say that the Bledsoe series has countered very well many of the issues brought up in the RMA. Maybe thats why many think he is innocent.

As far as James and Hinson, we have very detailed accounts of their actions and misdeeds. Just because they were not fired does not mean they are innocent either. Nobody has countered anything reported about them. So I can see how many people feel they are guilty.

Compared to what I have read about these 2 cops and what have read about Wray, Wray looks like a saint. If Wray is convicted of criminal offenses, I'll be shocked.

Ed Cone

Not sure what you mean by "other than lying to Mitch," JC.

If the police chief is found to have been lying to the City Manager as alleged, it's a pretty big deal.


sean coon

great post, ed.

Jeffrey Sykes

*It's not one long quote, JS; There are two quotes, marked by two separate links, on related subjects of justice and public attitudes. Ed Cone*

Ed:

I was refering to this:

"Joe Guarino on other people: "The number of young African-American men in jail has long been a source of concern with the Simkins crowd as well as other prominent black leaders nationwide...Some of us believe that violators of the state criminal code should be punished. They should be required to repay their debt to society and make restitution."

Which consists of two entirely unrelated comments cut and pasted into one long quote through the use of a disingenuous, or outright malicious, ellipses.

Bubba

"I understand that to you, Bubba, an unwillingness to damn Mitch and burn the RMA report is the same thing as announcing a vendetta against Wray."

Of course that's the way you understand it, Ed.

It's just the way you respond to people who are not fooled by your.....charade.

jc

"Not sure what you mean by "other than lying to Mitch," JC. "

Are there any other charges that you know about other than lying to Mitch? If so, what are they?

Is lying to Mitch a criminal offense? If not, please explain what the "big deal" is.

Lying is hard to prove unless you have a witness for verification, something in writing, or an audio tape.

He could have just mis- translated for all I know.


jc

"And Cara, I respectfully disagree that race is a deciding factor in who gets locked up. Rather, whether you are guilty or not is the dominant factor. The race theory of incarceration is post hoc ergo proctor hoc. The disproportionate number of black males incarcerated isn't because they have been wrongly convicted or because they have been singled out. Rather it has to do with societal and cultural reasons that nobody wants to discuss openly, so instead they use discrimination as a scapegoat."

very good reply Sam!

Cara Michele

"The race theory of incarceration is post hoc ergo proctor hoc."

Dang! Impressive... Or were you just clearing your throat, Sam? ;)

Race is a factor in who gets incarcerated, for a whole lot of reasons. So is economic class. I'm not one to throw the word "discrimination" around, nor do I look for scapegoats. But I am a realist. I wish that we could all talk about race and class with our defenses down, but controversial subjects seem to make us run to our political and emotional corners. It's a shame. Because that keeps us from getting anywhere.


Ed Cone

Thanks for the clarification, JS.

You are still incorrect, though. The comments are directly related.

The post containing those two related comments is about Guilford County's need, or not, for a new jail.

The high incarceration rate for black males is one of the reasons our jail is so full (comment one).

Joe is reacting to a suggestion that we consider alternative sentencing and other non-incarceration policies, and opining that he'd rather see at least some of the miscreants locked up (comment two).

Neither disingenuous, or malicious.

sean coon

jeff, i just hopped over and read the full post at guarino's. what ed left out in the middle doesn't reduce the effect of juxtaposing the two quotes. while joe focused on the "concept of alternative sentencing" -- outside the context of race -- the entire post reeked of mad agenda hunting.

joe and i don't wear the same shoes, so it's tough for me to see/understand the world/greensboro through the sames lens, but the vibe of his entire post is very much at odds with his latest prayer session for a handful of cops who are receiving due process.

Joe Guarino

Actually, the post was about a set of proposals made by Scott Yost in the Rhino Times, and the argument made therein that adoption of these proposals would reduce the need for a new jail. (Melvin Alston later was featured repeating that argument on the front page of the N&R.) The post questioned whether impacts on the control of crime were being duly considered.

Contrasting the two posts side-by-side, as others have pointed out above, would be more logically coherent if the police were already jailed or convicted; but of course, they have not been, at least as of yet. If there is hard evidence that these officers engaged in criminal activity, it would force all of us to reconsider our thinking. We have not yet seen that type of evidence.

WildJack

Just want to make sure no one overlooks this, from the CA (Chronically Argumentative):

"You must graduating a class of morons, because even when you spell it out, it doesn't make any sense."

It's good enough to recall and repost, often.

He goes on, of course, to ask:

"I wonder who has more experience in this area, you or me?"

You, sweet prince.

WildJack

Does your religion disallow use of the name "Skip" on Mondays, Joseph?

Roch101

"And Cara, I respectfully disagree that race is a deciding factor in who gets locked up." -- CA

Well, that's one of those things where emperical data could support or refute such an opinion. I'd be quite happy to look at any data you could present, Sam, that would support your opinion, but in the mean time, my quick Google search finds evidence that your opinion is misinformed.

Among persons convicted of drug felonies in state courts, whites were less likely than African-Americans to be sent to prison. Thirty-three percent (33%) of convicted white defendants received a prison sentence, while 51% of African-American defendants received prison sentences. -- US Department of Justice

------

The rate of drug admissions to state prison for black men are thirteen times greater than the rate for white men. A recent report by Human Rights Watch found that while drug use is consistent across all racial groups, Blacks and Latinos are far more likely to be arrested and prosecuted and given long sentences for drug offenses. Blacks constitute 13 percent of all drug users, but 35 percent of those arrested for drug possession, 55 percent of persons convicted, and 74 percent of people sent to prison. (Source)

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