June 2019

Sun Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat
            1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15
16 17 18 19 20 21 22
23 24 25 26 27 28 29
30            

« OMG! GSO on TMZ! | Main | Parallel truths »

Dec 30, 2006

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

Gate

We hope there is something special awaiting him in Hell. Perhaps one of the meat grinders he used on his own people.

Connie Mack Jr

We hope there is something special awaiting him in Hell. Perhaps one of the meat grinders he used on his own people.* Gate

I am sure Saddam will have lot's of company in his new kingdom. Quoting the Republican VP candiate in 2000 " Help is on the way" to power up the meat grinders. Trust me and George.*paraphasing of course with his helpers to come.

Gate

One word for you: Tool.

John D. Young

"Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." -- Matthew 25:40

"Our opposition to the death penalty was so firm, that we appealed to Israel not to set aside its deeply held commitment against the death penalty even in the case of Adolph Eichmann." -- Al Vorspan, director emeritus of the Commission of Social Action of Reform Judaism, Union of American Hebrew Congregations.

"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... In fact, violence merely increases hate. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars." -- Dr. Martin Luther King

"I cannot square capital punishment with any of my Christian experience... I cannot square it with the introduction to the Ten Commandments. I cannot square it with the Gospel... I cannot square it with "The Beatitudes." I cannot square it with my knowledge of our canonical tradition... I can not square it with my reading of any one of our saints." -- Seraphim, Bishop of Ottawa

"Regarding a reverence for human life as fundamental, and believing that the Light of God dwells within each of us, we declare our unwavering opposition to capital punishment. The death penalty violates respect for sacredness of life, and forecloses all possibility for spiritual growth and redemption. The taking of life by the state endorses the violence against which we bear witness, and produces the very brutality it seeks to punish and prevent." -- Friends Committee on National Legislation a Quaker public interest lobby founded in 1943.

RB

Nice collection of quotes, Mr.Young.

Seems to me, the death penalty shows a fatal flaw in Homo Sapiens - at least in this point of development.

Don McArthur's post, I think puts it in accurate and succint perspective:
http://www.mcarthurweb.com/archive.php?item=933

sean coon

biggest. mistake. ever.

they should've tried him in europe with an international court.

our government is a bunch of friggin' idiots.

meblogin

Sean,

Why is our gov. a bunch of idiots? Saddam was tried by Iraq...not the USA.

thanks

John D. Young

The only just response to 9/11 was to respond with police, federal and international law enforcement and the use of the US and the international court system. The invasion of Iraq was an unjust act of aggression. Developing a much stronger international court system would have been a worthy goal with the potential for some positive results to prevent more events like 9/11.

The current Iraqi Government could not stand on its on for a week without the protection of the US military -- that is the classic definition of a illegitimate government. Now an Iraqi Government with no obvious legitimacy, created by the US occupation has with US assistance tried and executed Saddam Hussein. Sean is completely right that only in an international court environment, outside of Iraq, would a trial of Hussein be given broad and long term legitimacy.

Hussein was the US secular ally during the 1980's as we urged and assisted him in the Iraq-Iran War. It will take a great biographer some 75 years from now to view Hussein with any clarity and provide proper insight on his atrocities as well as his ability to create the somewhat unique Iraq of 1988, 89, 90, 91 (before Gulf War I) that had the regions best health care, the best educational system for men and women, the best programs in arts and museums, a growing economy employing both men and women, excellent public infrastructure that provided clean water, electricity and sewer etc. Hussein's Iraq of 1990 is now completely destroyed.

Jeffrey Sykes

So long.
We wish you well.
You told us how you weren't afraid to die.
Well then, so long.
Don't cry.
Or feel too down.
Not all martyrs see divinity.
But at least you tried.

Standing above the crowd,
He had a voice that was strong and loud.
We'll miss him.
Ranting and pointing his finger
At everything but his heart.
We'll miss him.

Eulogy

Live in 1996

Bubba

"The only just response to 9/11 was to respond with police, federal and international law enforcement and the use of the US and the international court system."

Oh please, John.

This is the 21st century, and the solutions that MAY have once worked in the 20th century in certain circumstances will NOT work against the purveyors of modern day terrorism.

The reality of that fact is that terrorists laugh at unrealistic and unworkable notions that you described, no matter how those things are applied.

They are no respecter of state, boundaries, faith (except their own), or political/social/economic structure.

We've known that for quite some time. Why are we wasting time discussing a strategy that is useless?

John D. Young

Bubba, so far it has been hard investigative police work with actual contacts within the community in England, Germany, Spain, the US, etc., that has help prevent some additional attacks. The response to a well organized crime like on 9/11 is to be found in our system of laws and courts not in a preemptive invasion.

The CA

Saddam has apparently already been in Hell for awhile.

He got what he deserved. Tyrants like him deserve the death penalty along with child abusers, molesters and baby killers.

Kirk D.

I'm almost afraid to ask you to clarify that last bit Sam.

Connie Mack Jr

Saddam has apparently already been in Hell for awhile.

He got what he deserved. Tyrants like him deserve the death penalty along with child abusers, molesters and baby killers.* CA

I'm almost afraid to ask you to clarify that last bit Sam.*Kirk

What CA means besides knowing where spiritual Hell is located and who is on it's membership rolls is that he wanted a good ole drawn and quarter murder with pain and suffering before large mobs. Now that's the ticket for a little snap neck party. You got to hand it to Saddam, he never fess up to where he hid those missing WMD's in the end.

Bubba

"Bubba, so far it has been hard investigative police work with actual contacts within the community in England, Germany, Spain, the US, etc., that has help prevent some additional attacks."

Those things are all nice and wonderful, but they were not done as a response to the events of 9-11, as you brought up in your original post.

But what the heck. Maybe you're right.

Let's send Columbo and Kojack to Iraq with well-connected interpreters and snitches to track down the perps in the Sunni/Shia violence.

Then after we get THAT handled, we can send them to Afghanistan and Pakistan to find bin laden and Omar.

Once we grab them, we'll have Perry Mason prosecute 'em in Judge Judy's courtroom.


Here's a clue: This sort of thing doesn't work like it does on TV, John. These folks don't give a rat's ass about "police, federal and international law enforcement and the use of the US and the international court system".

Those institutions won't stop them, and won't hold them accountable for their actions. Most importantly, those institutions will not strategically neutralize the terrorists from committing future wanton acts of violence.

Those truths have been clearly established. Let's not unlearn lessons that have already been taught to us.

PotatoStew

"These folks don't give a rat's ass about 'police, federal and international law enforcement' ... Those institutions won't stop them, and won't hold them accountable for their actions."

Bubba


If you had been paying attention Stew, you would have known that my post was in response to THIS statement by John:

"The response to a well organized crime like on 9/11 is to be found in our system of laws and courts not in a preemptive invasion."

Share with us exactly how your knee-jerk reaction applies to that particular subject?

The CA

Yes, the response that John refers to worked so well for the Clinton Administration in trying to prevent 9/11.

Under John's theory, we should not have gone into Afghanistan. The "preemptive" bit is designed to throw the reader off because when military action is required, it doesn't matter if it is offensive or defensive- it simply means the other options did not work.

John D. Young

Sam, maybe we will all be clearer on the proper course of action in 12 years. But the nature of the preemptive invasion of Iraq has a great deal more significance than a technique to "throw off the reader."

"Offensive war" has historically been condemned by the Christian Church and other major religious authority. We need no revisions yet of what happened in Iraq -- it was a preemptive invasion of a sovereign country. Police action is aimed at bringing individuals to justice under the rule of law while the role of the military and of war is seldom defined because it has no boundaries and it always varies widely from the original plans. War takes on a strange life of its own that defies all logic and all moral thought. It is always unpredictable and it requires a political settlement -- the same type of political settlement that we foolishly thought was difficult before the war started, before all the deaths, massive wounds and suffering.

Sam and Bubba, which comes first your religious and moral beliefs or your support of this nation state at any cost? Is America your God? What happens when your religious beliefs are in conflict with US policy? Do you see any religious or moral arguments applicable to US policy after 9/11? Does protection of the nation state and your family simply trump the teachings of Christ?

I will add this quote by Augustine about war: "Anyone who looks with anguish on evils so great, so repulsive, so savage, must acknowledge the tragedy of it all; and if anyone experiences them or even looks on at them without anguish, his condition is even more tragic, since he remains serene by losing his humanity."

Gate

Hanging was an easy way out for him. They should have dropped him off in the middle of Sadr City. It might have helped the peace process and we could have taken bets on long he lasted.

PotatoStew

Sam,

"Yes, the response that John refers to worked so well for the Clinton Administration in trying to prevent 9/11."

And yet that response also seems to have been sucessful at preventing the attack mentioned in the article I linked to.

Military options certainly have thieir place. Afghanistan, and going after those directly responsible for 9/11, was an appropriate response. It wasn't preemptive. Invading Iraq seems to have been a mistake in many ways, and it's questionable whether it's made us any safer.

I could be convinced that there are circumstances where preemptive strikes were legitimately necessary, if there was a *much* more overt and clear cut threat from a country. I don't think Iraq qualified. I also think that because of Iraq, the burden of proof is going to need to be higher for lawmakers and citizens to back such an action in the future.

You and I probably both recognize that there is a time and place for both law enforcement and military options - we just differ on where the line should be drawn. My comment took issue with Bubba's blanket implication that law enforcement options "won't stop [terrorists] and won't hold them accountable" when clearly, they can and have.

Bubba

"My comment took issue with Bubba's blanket implication that law enforcement options "won't stop [terrorists] and won't hold them accountable" when clearly, they can and have."

There was no such broad implication except in your imagination. My statement was clearly in reference to 9-11.

This is not the first time you've done such a thing.

PotatoStew

Nor is it the first time you've tried to spin your own words despite the fact that anyone can scroll up and read them.

"Let's send Columbo and Kojack to Iraq with well-connected interpreters and snitches to track down the perps in the Sunni/Shia violence." - obviously not a reference to 9/11.

"Those institutions won't stop them, and won't hold them accountable for their actions. Most importantly, those institutions will not strategically neutralize the terrorists from committing future wanton acts of violence." - broad statements, also specifically referencing future events, rather than just 9/11.

Bubba

Same old Stew....look for any minor point you can use to obfuscate the point.

What evidence do you have that the means you and John advocate are more effective than other methods?

The situation in Britain was only one success story for the method you prefer, and it came about mostly as a matter of luck.

There are MANY more examples of the lack of success of your preferred methods.

PotatoStew

Happy New Year, Bubba.

Bubba

Glad I could help, Stew.

John D. Young

Bubba, my point is again that lawful police activity is the just, moral and proper way to respond to criminal threats of terrorism -- not a preemptive invasion. The broad, unpredictable and mutually destructive brush of war is not the answer to the problem of criminal terrorist attacks.

Below are some articles on how police activity has helped stop terrorist attacks in NY's Holland Tunnel, Rockford Ill. Mall, Milan subway, London Parliament, Los Angeles, Madrid Spain, Denmark, Frankfort Germany, etc., etc.

* Sorry Bubba, Ed's software for this sight would not allow my post of a long list of web articles that gave details to the events mentioned above. I got a message that some of these articles could contain spam.

The comments to this entry are closed.