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« Scoble's mom | Main | Letters from a would-be killer »

May 11, 2006

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Chewie

And a raise.

I'm skeptical of youth in my journalists, but that was a damn good hire.

Joe Killian

I do what I can, Chewie.

It was a good way to start the new job.

chip atkinson

Ed or Joe- I cannot find any link between the MM and hate groups. Is there one that does not originate from their detractors? Also, there has been alot of reputable reporting regarding the DHS and border patrol and collusion with traffickers (sp). Despite what you think of Michelle Malkin, she's done a thorough job with this issue. Do you think the MM is getting what it deserves?

Joe Killian

Chip:

I don't think the Southern Poverty Law Center - which to its credit is a detractor of any and all racist groups - is any less reputable than Michelle Malkin. The U.S. government certainly doesn't think so.

See their magazine, "Intelligence Report" for photographs documenting known National Alliance and Aryan Nation members on patrol with the Minutemen at the border.

A link or a coincidence? You have to decide for yourself. Whatever the Minutemen think of groups like the AN and the NA it's clear from poking around these groups' websites that they love the Minutemen.

chip atkinson

I think you are wrong about the Southern Poverty Law Center. They are extremely liberal and have accused Conservatives pundits like Limbaugh of being racists. And the Government hates the MM.

As I asked on your site... why is that important? The real question should be why are our leaders not enforcing our laws? 1000 volunteers did more in less time than our entire Border Patrol. The Government's led us to believe they have been overwhelmed.


Joe Killian

If there are pictures of members of Aryan Nation and National Alliance patrolling as Minutemen (and there are - I've seen them and am not myself a loon) should we ignore them or say it's not an issue because they come from a group that has committed the sin of being "extremely liberal?"

The list of people who have called Limbaugh racist is not a short one - and they're not ALL crazy.

To answer your question about why it's important...I think it's hard for Americans to get behind a group like this on a lot of levels, but especially if there's credible evidence some (perhaps many) of them aren't doing what they're doing for national security but because they want to protect their culture from brown people.

Which is something I heard a lot of yesterday. Not everyone who came out to support the Minutemen was a racist. But some of them certainly were - much more than I percieved Jim Gilchrist himself to be. I think it's hard to argue that that's a side issue rather than an issue of its own.

I don't think anyone who came out to protest the Minutemen was saying: "You're ineffecitve and can't do the job more efficiently than the border patrol!"

Many if not most were saying: "We don't trust your motives and we think current border enforcement itself is working and want a different system that does things you don't want it to do anyway!"

That's an entirely different argument than the one you're proposing - wherein the question is, naturally, how do we keep all these illegal aliens the hell out of our country and the answer is - "Well, whatever their motives or alliances, the Minutemen seem to be doing that job."

If the question OR the answer were that simple no one would be arguing anything. These two groups - and much of America - can't even agree on terms just now. In that sense criticizing people who criticize the Minutemen and their motives because you think they're doing a fine job and nothing else should matter seems a little short-sighted.

Joe Killian

Sorry - that should read "We don't trust your motives and we we think current border enforcement itself ISN'T working..."

chip atkinson

Joe, I know you are not a loon. Who these guys are is a story and should be investigated. But as a reporter, you should know that groups who think conservatives like Limbaugh and Reagan are racists are going to be considered as- at best - having an agenda that taints their credibility. Ed uses this whenever conservative folks like Crichton or Malkin make a point.

I have not read anything about the people who protest the MM. I am curious why they would go to such efforts. The MM have few friends in either party. Their initial efforts woke up conservatives and probably others about one issue that is crystal clear and certainly not arguable. Our Government does not want to enforce current immigration policies.

Bubba

"But as a reporter, you should know that groups who think conservatives like Limbaugh and Reagan are racists are going to be considered as- at best - having an agenda that taints their credibility."

Absolutely, Chip. It also weakens the use of the term "racist" when it's properly applied too.

Joe Killian

I agree that you have to be skeptical about information that's prevented from sources you think have partisan motives.

But we're talking photographs of people who are confirmed members of organized and public white power organizations. On patrol with the Minutemen. We're talking about these groups referring to Minutemen events as white power events on their own websites and in their own mailings. This is stuff that can be confirmed with the naked eye, unless you believe that the SPLC has doctored the photos or in some way tricked white supremicists into joining the group.

Skepticism is good. A partisan antagonism that leads you to dismiss even photographic evidence and associations that you should be able to make with your own good judgement from the evidence presented (and that you can find yourself, with your own browser, at home in your underwear) if it's presented, confirmed or publicized by groups with which you disagree...not so good.

I don't particularly like Rush Limbaugh. I've been on his show and he called me "a very intelligent young man" and complimented my writing (after mocking me when I wasn't there to defend myself) but I think he's sort of a partisan hack. All the same -- if he points me to photographs of Jesse Jackson having sex with prostitutes I'm not going to dismiss it because of the source.

chip atkinson

Joe- I'm not attacking your story. It was awesome. I don't even think we disagree on this one.

Joe KIllian

I don't either. I'm of the point of view that both sides in this debate have some valid points and real concerns that should be addressed.

Neither side is doing all it should to put those across and, in fact, seem to be actively engaged in doing things that damage their case and cause.

In the end Cara might have summed up the whole story pretty well when she wondered about the value of two groups of people who have completely villified one another screaming at each other from across the street.

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