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Mar 04, 2006

Comments

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Brenda Bowers

Ed, I am unfamiliar with the slang “nutjobbery”. Like the sound of it of course, it has a certain 'ring', but need a definition.

As for terrorism as we are seeing it most in the world today, it begins with a religion that teaches it is the pinnacle, or last and highest communication to man from God. It begins with a religion that is so immersed in, and controlling of, the daily lives of it’s practitioners that it’s convoluted text and teachings can be used to justify any action one wishes to take. It takes flight when the religion’s true believers in God’s love REMAIN SILENT when their own brethren use the text and teaching to hate and kill any who do not agree with them.

I believe this pretty well describes Islam today.

PS: I’m back Sir. Only proves there is something to that old adage, “Watch what you wish for!” Peace. (Oh, and until you learn to “read” me correctly I will give you a hint: Poke in ribs Ed,. Poke! Poke! Poke!)

Silver

Sounds like a crime prosecutable under the current hate crime laws.

Ag

Cara Michele

Random fact of the day: Google returns 602 hits for "nutjobbery." ;)

Excellent word use, Ed.

Ed Cone

Nutjobbery means what it sounds like, the active state of being nuts.

I don't think it's fair or accurate to equate the religion of Islam and the political tool of terrorism to the extent you do. As for Muslims remaining silent, the DTH article linked above quotes the UNC Muslim Student Association: "Regardless of what his intentions prove to be, we wholeheartedly deplore this action, and trust that our fellow classmates will be able to dissociate the actions of this one disturbed individual from the beliefs of the Muslim community as a whole."

Ed Cone

Thanks, Cara. I thought I made it up.

Richard R

At a guess, I'd think nutjobbery is when one person does it, terrorism is when more than one is involved. The beltway snipers are on the edge - one adult and one juvenile.

Ginny

That statement from the Muslim Student Association, commendable as it may be, turns the responsibility from Muslims (who one assumes might take the attitude of the Puritan's city on the hill - it is our job to show others that this belief is worthy of emulation & brings joy and virtue) back on the "other": they "trust that our fellow classmates will be able to dissociate the actions of this one diturbed individual." I would think that the appropriate response would be, we will try to model behavior that will lead others to think of this as the act of a single lunatic (the nutjobbery not unlike that of the occasional idiot who spouts Revelations while shooting others) rather than of our group (as other groups which counter Christian nutjobbery by aiding those of other faiths and helping many another person to act in a more forgiving and loving way toward his non-Christian brethren).

UNC student

As someone who knew Mohammed slightly--less well, I guess, than I had thought--I find it hard to believe that this is just a matter of Muslim indoctrination of some sort. We had occassion to talk about American foreign policy once or twice and I never detected even a hint of anti-American anger. I'm guessing this has a lot more to do with personal problems and frustrations. Of course, I could be wrong. But until someone provides some actual evidence to the contrary--as opposed by hearsay and speculation--I'm not going to be convinced. I should add that he never struck me as a "nutjob" of any kind, either. Although his actions make it clear that something wasn't right.

Bubba

"Where does terrorism begin, and angry nutjobbery end?"


"Regardless of what his intentions prove to be, we wholeheartedly deplore this action, and trust that our fellow classmates will be able to dissociate the actions of this one disturbed individual from the beliefs of the Muslim community as a whole."

Has the UNC Muslim Student Association previouslty spoken out in condemnation of acts of terror committed in the name of their religion?

DRJ

Rather than focus on what this man felt, I think we should focus on what he allegedly said and did. If the reports are true, he said he was a Muslim attacking Americans. It appears pretty clear that he in fact attacked Americans.

If he is insane or incompetent, there should be other evidence of his "nutjobbery" in addition to this incident. Absent other information that calls his sanity or competence into question, I think we should judge him for his words and deeds.

kactuz

This is yet another example of Muslims following the path of their prophet.

Notice how no officials want to call it a 'hate crime'. Had it been a white or any non-Muslim attacking a Muslims group, the headlines would be screaming.

The fact is that Islam is a religion of hate and anger. Where it dominates, other religions, women, jews, gays, etc... are oppressed.

The fact is that Mohammad did many vile things - as recorded in Islam's own accounts - and still Muslims say he is their example and must be respected.

Perhaps that explains everything.

John Kactuz

UNC student

DRJ,

Since I have actual previous conversations with Mohammed to rely on, I guess I'm less eager to uncritically accept rather ambiguously worded media reports. Did he tell the police he acted out revenge for the treatment of Muslims? If so, why does the police spokesman say that he "allegedly" said this? Who is doing the alleging here? And are they informed or just speculating? Again, I could be wrong. But I'd like to see more evidence than just a Muslim name.

DRJ

UNC Student:

I understand you are reluctant to judge someone you know without hearing the full story. I want to hear the full story, too. That's why I wrote that we should focus on what he "allegedly" said and did and then I went even further to say that "if the reports are true". First reports are often erroneous and I'm definitely willing to believe this one was, too.

However, in general we should judge people by what they say and do, not by some nebulous standard of how they felt. That's frankly why hate crimes in general make little sense. All crime is hate crime if you're the victim.

rwc

"Where does terrorism begin, and angry nutjobbery end?"

Tough question. Is sawing off the head of a live screaming man an act of insanity or the act of one obeying his "religious beliefs?" Hard to tell when that religion is Islam, isn't it?

Ed Cone

RWC, the comments here are open and uncensored, but you are invited to take that shit over to Little Green Footballs where it belongs.

mik

Ed Cone:
"I don't think it's fair or accurate to equate the religion of Islam and the political tool of terrorism to the extent you do."

Why? Kindly explain why it is not accurate. Muslem terrorists do it all the time. Why don't you believe them? Say what you want, but they say what they mean and they mean what they say and then they follow up with deeds.

Ed Cone

I'm unwilling to let a bunch of fanatics define Islam or speak for its hundreds of millions of adherents, that's why.

I'm painfully aware of their actions, the consequences, and the justifications, but I'm not ready to blame the entire faith and its faithful because of them.

Bubba

It's interesting the way the Antique Media has downplayed this. Check out the headline on this article.....it's typical of the way it's being handled.

http://www.news14charlotte.com/content/top_stories/default.asp?ArID=114704

I tell you, it's all the SUV's fault!

Alex

Just being Muslim is sufficent to qualify as a nut job.

Thomas

Dear ed,

Where were you when Little Green Footballs exposed the Rathergate fake National Guard memos? You don't belong at Little Green Footballs. You can't run with the big dogs. Stay on the porch.

Afshin
I'm unwilling to let a bunch of fanatics define Islam or speak for its hundreds of millions of adherents, that's why.

That's exactly what the ummah is counting on Ed. Welcome to dihimmihood.

DRJ

As I understand the question posed here, how do we tell a terrorist from someone who is insane? Maybe we can't with certainty, but I think we should make judgments that impose appropriate punishments as well as protect society.

Sometimes a person becomes so overwhelmed by his/her beliefs (e.g., Andrea Yates, Eric Rudolph, Timothy McVeigh, and Muslim terrorists) that it seems like they must be insane to do what they did. If a person is so insane that they have no control over their actions, punishment probably isn't the answer. But people who are really insane probably have a history of erratic behavior or an inability to control their behavior.

Most if not all of my examples had control - they planned, they hid their preparations from society/law enforcement, and they tried to avoid capture and/or culpability. In my view, and for the sake of current as well as potential victims, that makes their actions punishable rather than the result of insanity.

Ed Cone

Alex:no

Thomas: I was right here when LGF and Power Line and others with whom I disagree on some things got that thing right. What possible connection can be drawn between previous good work and the witless bashing of an entire religion?

No, Afshin, I think you've got it backwards: buying into an inevitable global religious war, instead of isolating politically-motivated religious zealouts, is what the bad guys are counting on.

UNC student

I should make it clear that I completely agree with DRJ regarding punishment. I am not trying to suggest that Mohammed wasn't legally or morally culpable for his actions.
The question that bothers me is what drives a seemingly normal, seemingly-non-extremist person to hurt others and to throw away his own life like this. Not an original question. I know. I just don't find insanity or Islamic extremism convincing explanations, at least not sufficient ones.

billg

The link between fear and bigotry is real and deep. So, it's ironic that the fear and bigotry that drives real Islamic terror are so often mirrored by some of those who shout the loudest about it.

Jokamo

It sounds as though this young man had a psychotic break, or is experiencing the onset of schizophrenia. If he is university-aged, then he is in the bracket for schizophrenia to begin to manifest. Otherwise motivated, high-performing and reasonable students, most commonly young men, can seemingly overnight become strangers to all who know them and do the most inexplicable things.

No one knows what the triggering factors are; it could be any of a number of things. But until someone posts about his recent behavior, and whether or not he was acting strangely, it may just be mental illness rather than terrorism.

Patrick Eakes

I spoke with Ed privately and heard him speak publicly about conservative blogs nailing Dan Rather. He never gritted his teeth once. He simply stated the facts that some smart people caught Rather doing something dumb.

There are over a billion Muslims in the world, and most of them pursue peace, a basic tenet of their religion. I am no more willing to paint all Muslims with a hate brush than I am to accept that portrayal of me because of the Klan, a certain German fuhrer, or any other nutjobs who call themselves Christians.

Mitch

The MSA is a creature of the Muslim Brotherhood. Take their expressions of regret with a little skepticism.

DRJ

In a way, it would be a relief if events like this were caused by psychotic breaks as Jokamo speculates. That seems like something rare that we could predict or deal with if we mobilize the right resources. The truly troublesome aspect is what UNC Student raises. Why does an otherwise normal person do something so destructive to himself and others?

I'm not a psychologist but I have lived long enough to observe that late teens/early 20's are impressionable years. Who knows what kind of cultural, family, social, or peer pressures might be involved in this young man's life? I've read that peer pressure is the most influential factor in young people's lives - even greater than parents' influence - so in cases like this I'd want to look closely at his associates.

Ed Cone

Mitch, the article to which you link does not support your statement that the MSA is "a creature of the Muslim Brotherhood."

The article says the MSA is one of the largest student orgs in the country, and embraces a wide variety of ideas. It was founded by supporters of the Muslim Brotherhood, "a sophisticated and diverse organization that appeals to many Muslims worldwide and sometimes advocates peaceful persuasion, not violent revolt."

Nice try at a smear, though.

Ron

"Capt. Joel Booker of the Carrboro police said he was not qualifying the incident as being related to any anti-Americanism, as has been widely reported and suspected. But the investigation was conducted with the "world situation" in mind, he added."

Just what does it take to call running over 9 students on purpose a terror attack? Maybe it takes 10 or more or 15 or even 20 students wonder if Capt. Booker could give us an idea just what constitutes a terrorist attack. Capt. Booker wouldn't know a terrorist if one cut his wife's head off. Wonder if he could say Islamic fascist without soiling his PC shorts. I see that people are still calling this a 'religion of peace', they actually seem to buy into that nonsense, what does it take to make them realize that what they see and hear is the real thing, this is a Charlie Manson type death cult and they will do you great bodily injury if you stretch your neck out like a fool.

Bubba

"No, Afshin, I think you've got it backwards: buying into an inevitable global religious war, instead of isolating politically-motivated religious zealouts, is what the bad guys are counting on."

No Ed, I think what the bad guys are counting on is the continuing silent assent of their brothers and sisters to their violent agenda, and their pliability for the brothers and sisters to be so easily manipulated, among other things.

Don't you find it strange that the violent protests of the Mohammed cartoons happened so "spontaneously" on such short notice?

Ed Cone

I don't think your position is contrary to mine, Bubba. We definitely need more help from more moderate Muslims.

But those demonstrations -- who thinks or says they were "spontaneous?" It's documented that the controversy was ginned up, and that the protests were well organized, so I'm not sure what you are getting at here.

AST

This guy was presumably one of the good guys, who came here and was educated and became part of our society, only to snap over an issue that most of us can only view as irrational. Blasphemy hasn't been a crime in western society for quite a while. And vengeance doesn't really rate highly as a social obligation either.

Do all Muslims need to be deprogrammed before they can live here? From events in Europe, that's becoming a serious question.

I don't want to think that way, especially because the Democrats have apparently decided that playing the race card is the only way to enhance their chances to be seen as concerned about national security. Notice how long their opposition to the Patriot Act lasted after the polls on the Dubai Ports deal came out?

Boy, wouldn't it be rich if an African Muslim country wanted to buy these ports? Or if Israel were in the bidding?

Blood is thicker than water. Is it thicker than oil?

I don't know what to think, but if we trust our military bases to these people, how can we tell them they can't operate our ports without being hypocrites?

James B. Badger

Yeah, yeah. It's just a few "troubled" individuals. All those Imams screaming for blood don't really mean it. Check the map here - http://chromatism.net/bloodyborders/ - it charts worldwide Muslim terror only since 9/11. Let me repeat that. Only since 9/11. Had we more data to pre-9/11, I assure you it would only be worse.

Notice all the Lutheran riots. The great Quaker uprising? the Baptist bloodbath? Yeah, me neither.

"Who knows what kind of cultural, family, social, or peer pressures might be involved in this young man's life? "

Another version of "Why do they hate us?" All your hand wringing avoids the simple answer. Because you are the infidel. They are supposed to kill us. God told them to.

You slam LGF as a "hate" site, when all Charles does is post the news that others refuse to report or to see. Yeah, it is a hate site. He reports unflinchingly on how much they hate us. I seldom read LGF because it is so depressing. Atrocity after outrage. Blood, death, and destruction. And when they continue to scream Allah's name as they murder and riot, I hear them. I don't stick my fingers in my ears and hum, "La la la." so I can't hear.

When I read about attrocities around the globe, the names Bruce, and Gunther, and Jesus are not prominately featured. Instead it is Mohammed, and Mohammed, and Mohammed.

But heaven forbid we see a trend here. That would just upset our little multiculti viewpoint all to hell, wouldn't it? Call me a racist if that makes you feel better. But it's not Latinos, or Asians, or Blacks sowing death and destruction around the globe. It's not even confined to an ethnic group. It is Islam. Where are the Muslim "Not In Our Name" demonstrations? They will turn out in the thousands to riot, burn, and kill over a bunch of drawings and yet remain silent over serial bombings, throat cutting, torture and dismemberment.

Some stupid cartoons are an insult to their religion, but blowing up school children is not? What am I supposed to think? Does that not tell me all I need to know about the "Religion of Peace"?

Hey, I didn't start here. After 9/11 I had sympathy for the "moderate" Muslims too. I prayed they would not suffer from a bigoted backlash. Trouble is, they have hid so well, and remained so silent, that I can no longer hear nor see them. The screamer with a knife, the suicide bomber, the murderers of children have become the face of Islam to me. And the number of those like me is growing with each new outrage.

DRJ

In response to my question: "Who knows what kind of cultural, family, social, or peer pressures might be involved in this young man's life?", James B. Badger said: Another version of "Why do they hate us?"

Actually, what I had in mind when I wrote that question was the possibility that this young man may have associated with people who embrace militant beliefs. Or been reading inflammatory books or websites. Or perhaps even attended a questionable mosque.

I don't view this as an exercise in "Why do they hate us?" so much as it's an exercise in "How do we identify the people we need to fear and watch?" We can't monitor every Muslim, Muslim-sympathizer, and mercenary on the off-chance that they might do something. It's contrary to our values and as a practical matter impossible.

billg

>>"...what does it take to call running over 9 students on purpose a terror attack?"

It seems a driver with Mohammed as his first name is sufficient.

If the driver had been born in, say, Lenoir and was named something like "Bobby Ray Johnson" how many people would have made the immediate link with terror?

Maybe what happened was terror, maybe it wasn't. What we call it doesn't change it. A rose is a rose, you know. But the fact that so many of us automatically thought "terror!" when they heard the name "Mohammed" tells us something ugly about ourselves.

Fighting terror is pointless if we succumb to the same rage and bigotry as terrorists and their apologists.

jc

I watched the news last night and saw thousands of muslims in Pakistan yelling "DEATH TO BUSH."

Such a peaceful and non-violent religion. Dont think so.

If all the people here that think the muslims are so peaceful and non-violent, please name all the predominantly muslim countries you would feel safe visiting with your family.

xiaoding

" But the fact that so many of us automatically thought "terror!" when they heard the name "Mohammed" tells us something ugly about ourselves."

I think it tells me something ugly about you, but perhaps I misread. Could you be more specific? I always thought the ability to associate was a sign of intelligence, but hey, what do I know? It's not like names like Mohammed have been associated with terroism....oh, wait, they have, haven't they? But denial ain't just a river in Egypt!

I have been saying, for about a year now, that Bush's Wilsonian approach to the war was wrong, wrong, wrong, and that it would come back to bite him. People looked at me like I had two heads. But what do we see now? Bit by bit, America is losing patience. This attack is only the, what, forth or fith?, but with each new one, with each new riot, with each new artist or director or candidate assasinated the Wilsonian approach fails to satisfy.

How sad. A more aggresive war, at the onset, with behind the scenes deal making, would have been much better. But our leadership is hopelessly corrupt. When police chiefs have to lie and misstate the obvious, you know it is so. Our leaders betray us, and betray their oaths, in the service of a sick world view. The students suffer the sins of the faculty here.

billg

xiaoding: It is ugly because it is driven by the same atavistic fear that drives all racism. The impetus that drives Pakistanis or Indonesians to vow death to Americans is the same as the impetus that drives us to hear the name "Mohammed" and immediately think "terror". The rational response, the ethical and effective response, is to postpone judgement until the facts are known.

A lot of Muslims aren't postponing judgement. Whatever grievances, real or imagined, Muslims hold against Americans, anyone praying and wishing for dead Americans is clearly judging all Americans on the basis of a single criterion: their citizenship. That's the essence of racism. Likewise, judging people solely on the ethnicity of their name is the essence of racism.

The hostility of many Muslims is real and can't be denied. But it is stupid and dangerous to blind ourselves to the reality that it is fueled by the same ignorant racism that fueled, and still fuels, much of the violence and hatred of Western culture. If every Muslim was magically and instantly converted to, say, Lutheranism, the crowds in the street would not go away, because the racism that fuels them would remain.

Winning the war on terror is pointless if we turn into "them" in the process.

Bubba


"But those demonstrations -- who thinks or says they were "spontaneous?" It's documented that the controversy was ginned up, and that the protests were well organized....."

Not according to some people who have responded to the N+R LTE threads, and other blogs/message boards.

The mis-information I have read about the nature of the violence is amazing. I'll see if i can't find some good examples.

Billy The Blogging Poet

Where was the Department of Homeland Security and the Bush Administration while all this was going on? This attack simply proves the fact that the current approach as used by our current administration isn't working and never will.

Point Is?

Duh.

Really, why the effort at a pointless distinction?

"He was crazy so let's ignore it."

Like Mohammd Atta was sane?

Bubba

"Where was the Department of Homeland Security and the Bush Administration while all this was going on? This attack simply proves the fact that the current approach as used by our current administration isn't working and never will."

I will give you the benefit of the doubt here Billy, and assume you are being satirical in your comments.

Badger

"The impetus that drives Pakistanis or Indonesians to vow death to Americans is the same as the impetus that drives us to hear the name "Mohammed" and immediately think "terror".

Yes! We're just the same. The Pakis hate us for all those Muslims we kidnap and butcher live on TV while praising Jesus. The Indonesions for those radical Americans who bomb elementary schools. And both of them hate us for our practice of killing our sisters for coming home from a date with hickies. We're just the same.

Fact. Nearly every act of terror committed in the world today is committed by Muslims. (Bigot!)

Fact. Their "holy men" preach a doctrine of murder and violence and hatred. Not in an isolated incident, but over and over, and over. (Racist!)

Fact. The most outrageous horrors committed in the name of Islam are mostly met with a stunning silence from "moderate" Muslims. And for every mild statement of disapproval, there are ten riots and twenty fatwas calling for death to the infidels. (You bigoted racist!)

I could go on and on but I tire of this game. You don't change the facts by shouting racist. No more than calling Galileo a heritic made the sun suddenly start revolving around the earth. If you love your dogma, you will cling doggedly to it in the face of all facts. And burn at the stake those who have the temerity to challenge your world view. But you who are shouting bigot and racist in the face of the facts look a lot like flat-earthers in the age of space travel.

Nathan

There's nothing "home-grown" about this. Read the story: Reza Taheri-azar is an Iranian citizen here as a student.

billg

>>"We're just the same."

Not at all what I said.

I said it would be ironic if, in fighting terror, we became the same. I said Islamic terror is driven by fear, ignorance and racism. I questioned the value of defeating it if we succumb to the same kind of fear, ignorance and racism. I don't question the "facts" you outlined, but they've nothing at all to do with my point. If you oppose Islamic terrorists because of what they do, why should I not oppose you if you are driven to the same behavior by the same motivation: ignorant, fearful, racism?

But, then, you just took something out of context as a convenient launching pad for a rant. You really aren't interested in listening to anyone else.

Ed Cone

Nathan: home-grown, meaning the plan was hatched in North Carolina, by a UNC grad who lived nearby, not plotted by Osama from his cave.

The birthplace of the perp does not change that.

Nathan

Ed,

I understand what you're trying to say, but to some people the phrase "home-grown" might imply Americans killing each other. I think in some ways that would be more frightening than an attack by an Iranian student living in America.

Ed Cone

I hear you, Nathan, thanks for filling out the idea. Although I don't know if this guy had plans to go back to Iran -- he stayed in NC after graduation, and maybe planned to stay here, to be an American.

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