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Jan 17, 2013

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polifrog

"Tool"? How is he being used? By who?

Libertarians by their nature are generally unable to be used by any cause. Not being useful to entrenched power brokers is part of what keeps libertarians on the sidelines.

Just because it is difficult to disagree with with Mackey's comments on ObamaCare,

Technically speaking, it’s more like fascism. Socialism is where the government owns the means of production. In fascism, the government doesn’t own the means of production, but they do control it — and that’s what’s happening with our health care programs and these reforms.

does not make him the "tool".

ObamaCare empowers government relative to individuals. Clearly it is those who support ObamaCare who are the tools here ... tools for fascism.

Ed Cone

"Tool" in its more colloquial sense of "jerk" or "loudmouth" or "troll" or "the kind of guy who equates stuff he doesn't like to fascism."

Shirlee Murphy

Well, here is one who LOVES Obamacare--me! Prescription drug prices are down, docs are more careful about ordering tests and have more ways to co-operate with each other. Bring it on!!!

formerly gt

people who believe in free enterprise are referred to as tools by ostensibly well-educated people.

people think it's great that someone else is paying for their stuff.

people see every problem we face as something that the govt needs to address.

we're circling the drain.

Andrew Brod

Wow, that's a lot of strawmen in one comment. "People who believe in free enterprise" aren't being called tools. One particular person is.

"People" may or may not think it's great that someone else is paying for their stuff, but that's basically irrelevant here, as the core of Obamacare is the personal responsibility to be insured. Or at least that's how conservatives used to characterize the individual mandate in the years before Obama decided to agree with them.

And finally, "every problem we face"? Really? Believing that free enterprise isn't the answer to every question is not the same thing as believing it's never the answer.

Calm down. We're not circling the drain because one guy has said he'd rather not shop at Whole Foods. Or does the libertarian world view not admit that choice?

Andrew Brod

I said "strawmen," which means CP will come out soon and chide me.

David Wharton

Ben and Jerry are tools, too, but damn. Americone Dream and Phish Food.

polifrog

Ed:

"the kind of guy who equates stuff he doesn't like to fascism."


I happened to look up the term "tool" before commenting....

Via Urban Dictionary which I presume refers to the colloquial sense of various terms:

One who lacks the mental capacity to know he is being used. A fool. A cretin. Characterized by low intelligence and/or self-steem.

Whatever. Terms mean nothing to liberals. Just as "tool" means whatever you believe it to mean at the moment, so does "fascism"

What does "fascism" mean to you today?

Perhaps it doesn't matter. I suppose I should recognize fascism isn't fascism when it is liberalism. And that one who recognizes a fact as such is a simply a "troll".


Spag

So if a person didn't like Mussolini and equated him to fascism, is that person a tool?

No bonus points if he's actually correct?

What about the person who doesn't like unpopular but accurate characterizations of things he holds dear, is he a "tool" for calling his opposition a "tool"?

Keith Olbermann is a tool. Krugman is a tool. Tom Cruise is a tool. Don Henley was a big tool in the 80's, but less so now. Trent Lott is a tool. Michael Moore is a tool. Eddie Vedder is a tool. Sean Hannity is a tool. Chuck Todd is a tool. Andrew Sullivan is a tool who likes tools.

Penn Jillette is NEVER a tool on anyone's list.

polifrog

Doc Brod:

"People who believe in free enterprise" aren't being called tools. One particular person is.

Ed couldn't answer without redefining the term "tool" as something it is not.

Perhaps you can. How is Mackey a "tool"? For what reason?

Worst person on the internet

Tool: noun \ˈtül\

1)One who labels ideology he doesn't like "fascism"
2)One who labels arguments supportive of an ideology he doesn't like "strawmen"
3)One who labels analogies that expose the hypocrisy of his own ideology "false equivalences"

Consider yourself chided ...er, chid,...whatever.

polifrog

Shirley:

Well, here is one who LOVES Obamacare--me! Prescription drug prices are down, docs are more careful about ordering tests and have more ways to co-operate with each other. Bring it on!!!

Bought.

Spag

Surely Shirley can't be talking about Obamacare because it hasn't been implemented yet. She must actually be cheering on the status quo.

I know, stop calling me Shirley.

Ed Cone

New definition for tool: Someone who doesn't read past the first definition on the Urban Dictionary page.

Spag, Mussolini was a fascist. So, no toolery in calling him a fascist.

Toolish: Saying that since Mussolini was reputed to make the trains run on time, making trains run on time is fascist (see also: Hitler's vegetarianism).

And, also, saying that stuff that isn't fascist is fascist.

Worst person on the internet

Mussolini was a straw man. Seriously.

justcorbly

Whole Foods or Fresh Market or Earth Fare? Decisions, decisions, decisions.

Whole Foods has better produce, plus I can do things like buy a quarter-pound of bacon (about 3 slices) when I need to cook something.

If Mr. Whole Foods is a libertarian, I will excuse that fault and continue contributing to his bank account. Anyway, given the well-documented human propensity to band together and beat up on the little guys, libertarianism as a way to structure society has always struck me as a naive little fantasy.

polifrog

Ed:

New definition for tool: Someone who doesn't read past the first definition on the Urban Dictionary page.

I believe you argued in the "minstrel" thread that the reader defined the terms chosen by the writer and proceeded to chastise me based on your race based reading rather than my non racist intent.

Of course, I believe the writer defines the terms they choose. Therefore, you can choose to demean your word choice from an accusation of being manipulated to simple name calling. Your choice.

Regardless, you appear to lack the sensitivity required to predict how your word choice will be understood and now, apparently, the sensitivity to avoid name calling.

So, how is Mackey a tool? Pick your definition of "tool".

polifrog

justcorbly:

Anyway, given the well-documented human propensity to band together and beat up on the little guys, libertarianism as a way to structure society has always struck me as a naive little fantasy.

The idea is that the little guys, via the vote, beat up those humans banding together in government.

Unfortunately the little guys are loosing their members to those who prefer to be government tools ("tool" as defined by definition #1 in the Urban Dictionary, not some lesser number in importance, but #1).

HRH

poli, I believe the word you are looking for is "losing" Urban Dictionary # 1

polifrog

@HRH

Perhaps you can explain how a libertarian can be a tool for anything or alternatively why Ed's name calling (tool) in reference to Mackey is kosher.

Or perhaps you can explain how the heavy handed national regulation of a particular industry is not a form of fascism?

I suggested that fascism is not fascism when it is liberalism... at least to liberals.

Perhaps you can help us understand why Ed has one set of rules regarding who, reader or writer, defines the terms that a writer uses when that writer is not him, and then a second set of rules for when he is the writer. It appears to me that he believes he as a reader defines the terms I as a writer use in these comments but as a writer he defines his own terms as he chooses, not the reader.

To be clear, I accept Ed's definition of "tool", but that is only because I don't hold him to the standards he holds all those who are not him.

I do hope this helps you in following this thread.

justcorbly

Frog, I'll give you the notion that non-democratic governments have always been bands of the powerful elite organized to exploit everyone else. That's been going on since the first priests convinced people to toss a virgin daughter or two into the volcano to appease the gods.

Democratic governments are better at fending off priests who want to toss daughters into volcanoes. However, they are no less immune to multitudes of people believing that sacrificing virgins to the volcano god actually keeps him from losing his temper.

The libertarian hope that, via the vote, the "little guys" will beat up people banding to oppress them via the "government" is forlorn and, by definition, doomed to failure.

Why? When the "little guys" are successful at banding together to get their way, they become just another bunch of people organized to impose their will on everyone else.

Democracy or no, people seek allies and the means to band together to benefit themselves at the expense of everyone else.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Spag

M.C. Hammer wasn't a tool yet he was.

Ed Cone

One person who thinks Mackey misspoke is Mackey.

polifrog

Was that a take-back, Ed?

Or was it an example of someone lamenting the inflammatory nature among leftists of the term "fascism" when it is correctly used to label liberal policy?

I believe it was the latter. Sometimes a thing can hit too close to home. He sure as hell didn't recant the content.

Corporations doing good...

I am reminded of entering Walmart during Christmas. Walmart allows Salvation Army bellringers while Target does not. If there were a separate pail for donations to Walmart for allowing the bellringers I'd donate to it.

As it is, I am content with patronizing Walmart over Target.

Spag

Lance Armstrong = tool.

Worst person on the internet

Manti Te'O=super tool

Ed Cone

There was a kid at summer camp surnamed Toole. Looking back, I'm not sure everyone handled that with appropriate dignity.

Of course, being a tool is not always a bad thing.

Thanks to alert reader TB for finding this tweet, which also takes Mackey to the toolshed.

Collards

This whole thread has been precious as Ed would say.

Peggy Hickle

First of all -- pay attention -- it's Shirlee, not Shirley.

Secondly -- anyone who watches tv or who has talked to teenagers in the past 5 years understands the colloquial use of the word tool as Ed used it.

Thirdly -- I don't know where this thread got off on Obamacare, but hey, I'll jump in. Speaking as someone who hasn't had health insurance in over 10 years (I work for a tiny non-profit who has not been required to provide it and can't afford to, and working for said tiny non-profit, I make too much money to qualify for Medicaid, but not enough to afford individual health insurance), I am thrilled that Obamacare will be providing pools of people I can join in with so that perhaps I can finally afford health insurance.

And finally, while the liberalism/fascism conversation is endlessly fascinating, going back to the original thought about retail correctness, my guess is that most of us do not have the luxury to be too concerned about that. Whole Foods isn't even a blip on my radar because most months, I'm wondering if I can afford Harris Teeter or if my budget will only stretch to the Wal-Mart -- and despite their noble allowance of Salvation Army bell-ringers, the folks that rule Wal-Mart, in my humble opinion, are some of the biggest tools around. And I may hate myself in the morning, but it won't stop me from getting in bed with them when I have to. I live in a world that requires a large degree of pragmatism.

polifrog

Woodshed?

Ted Coine:

John Mackey of Whole Foods calls Obamacare "fascism," then stands by it on his blog. What a tool.

There is no reference that I can find to ObamaCare's fascist nature in Mackey's blog. Perhaps one of you can find it.

My sense is that the tool is he who uses term "tool" as nothing more than a pejorative. I understand it can be tough defending the interests of oppression without such trendy writer's bling like "tool". Poor Ted Coine. Poor Ed Cone. Tools to cool...Tools for oppression.

Why not turn to what Mackey actually said according to Mother Nature Network in response to liberal indignation to truth?


On Thursday, Mackey backpedaled on his use of the F-word, telling "CBS This Morning," "Well, I think that was a bad choice of words on my part ... that word has an association with of course dictatorships in the 20th century like Germany and Spain, and Italy. What I know is that we no longer have free enterprise capitalism in health care; it's not a system any longer where people are able to innovate; it's not based on voluntary exchange. The government is directing it. So we need a new word for it. I don't know what the right word is.”

F-word? Really? Willfully blinding themselves to their own dark side does no one any favors.

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