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Jan 22, 2013

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justcorbly

If I was gonna make a try for utopia, I'd certainly go for somewhere else than northern Idaho. Maybe northern Tahiti or northern Virgin Gorda.

Anyway, they will inevitably turn the guns they stock the place with on each other. Humans aren't very utopian.

Aside: In an undergrad history honors course about utopian attempts, I focused on Jesse James. Former Confederate, believer in the Lost Cause, believer in a better (Confederate) way. All nonsense, more or less, but people were polite.

(I'm always surprised when people seriously argue that everything is about to go down the tubes. Yes, we have problems. Almost all of them we caused. We can fix them if we choose to fix them. But, more people live better lives than ever before. We our technological creatures. Our tools will save us or kill us. It's up to us.)

David Wharton

I'm surprised they haven't had any pushback from Pat Conroy's alma mater. The military college owns the trademark on that name.

prell

"The military college owns the trademark on that name."

R.I.P. Guntard Death Cult compound of capitalists promoting socialist values by prohibiting property ownership. What will these psychos do when a white man re-enters the Oval Office?

polifrog

A community, yes. But utopian?

I don't believe the rejection of a utopia by a group rationally leads to that group being labeled a utopian community by utopianists.

Perhaps if there is any mistake being made by this community it is that they are not choosing a national route. Progressive utopianism did not make that mistake.

Andrew Brod

You forgot to mention Keynesian economics.

Grant

Talk about diminishing expectations. First they were going to remake New Hampshire. Then homestead the seas. Oh well, to each his own David Koresh compound.

polifrog

justcorbly:

Anyway, they will inevitably turn the guns they stock the place with on each other. Humans aren't very utopian.

This is an odd thing to say. It seems that where you see an armed community, I see armed individuals.

Let's explore.

Does my owning a firearm infringe on your rights? No.

Yet, individuals like Dave Ribar question my right to own a firearm.

How does he there?

The answer is that while my gun ownership does not infringe on Ribar's individual rights, my gun ownership does infringe on his concept of a more perfect society. In short my gun ownership infringes on Ribar's concept of a utopia. Of course, Ribar is part of a larger group of utopianists called liberals.

Ribar's mistake is that he allows himself to slide away from the individual as the fundamental building block of a society. His rational begins with 'What is best for society?', not 'What is best for the individual?'. The result is that despite the fact that my gun ownership does not infringe on him in any way, he feels entitled to infringe on my right to self defense based on his idea of a more perfect society.

Thus, your attack on this community being armed is based on your desire for and trust in a more perfect society, a utopia, in which firearms are unnecessary despite your belief that "humans aren't very utopian".

Odd.

polifrog

Keynesianism is only a tool by which utopianists attempt to engineer their concept of a better economic society by incentivising individuals to do what they would not otherwise do. Individual decision making becomes subordinated to the concept of a better economic society via Keynesianism.

It is failing in Europe, it is failing in Japan, and it is failing in the US.

Utopias tends to do that regardless of the size of the community.

bubba

"Oh well, to each his own David Koresh compound.'

Yes, and should it become established before Barack Obama leaves office, I'm sure Eric Holder would be overjoyed to play the Janet Reno role in the destruction of the perceived "threat" to "progressive" American "values".

Grant

Little known fact: Koresh got his arsenal from Fast and Furious, via Benghazi jihadis.

Bryan Gates

Isn't it odd that privately-owned real estate is abolished in this enterprise?

Thomas

It does sound a lot like a commune.

Poli - Would my owning a nuclear weapon infringe on your rights?

Ed Cone

Anyone who objects to the term "utopian community" for this venture needs to do some homework on the long American tradition of utopian communities.

polifrog

Anyone liberal who rejects that liberalism represents the most massive experiment in utopianism the nation, if not the world, has known, needs some time out from telling others how to live for some needed introspection.

polifrog

Thomas:

Poli - Would my owning a nuclear weapon infringe on your rights?


How discriminating is the use of a nuclear weapon? Not very. If you were to defensively use one against an individual many states away you would very likely indiscriminately kill many others who mean you no harm.

While you might be within your rights to kill that individual who means you harm, you would not be within your rights to kill those who do not mean you harm.

Your rights only extend so far as they do not infringe the rights of others.

There is, therefore, a distinction to be made between those weapons that kill indiscriminately and those that do not.

Being that there is no discriminate use of a nuclear weapon possible and, hence, no way to use one without over extending one's liberties there is no constitutional sanction for nuclear weapon ownership.

The same is not true of a firearm.

polifrog

Ed:

Anyone who objects to the term "utopian community" for this venture needs to do some homework on the long American tradition of utopian communities.


From the link at the post:

Those who agree to abide by the Patriot Agreement, and want to move to The Citadel, won’t be buying property. Instead, The Citadel will lease property to its residents (the website features a handy Citadel Housing Cost Calculator), with a range of lot sizes and customizable home exteriors available, and the option of living inside or outside the city walls.

Sounds like a gated community or apartment complex populated by like minded individuals. The article references that creepy Truman Show like Disneyland community in Florida as a parallel.

How is the Disneyland community not utopian when this is?

Perhaps your "otherism" isn't just practiced by others.

Ed Cone

You seem to assume that the term is derogatory, Frog. If you want to do some homework on the history of utopian communities in this country, which is fascinating, you can start with the post title.

David Hoggard

It is frog's job to write volumes about things without regard to the point; all-the-while convinced that when Ed Cone mentions something in a post, he'd better attack it in case the point he missed might - just might - go against some belief he holds so dear.

It is all so tiresome.

polifrog
Not exactly how I'd plan my commune, but good luck.

Does it not come across as placing daisies in rifles to you, Dave?

Pulpit rock

Hartzman

I believe whatever this is may be utopia, or heaven etc...

What are the chances to have experienced cognition,
considering the size etc... of the place?

Most everything else is gravy.

Most reading this, I assume, were born and raised
in the best era, and on a better side of the tracks than most of human history.

Imagine no flush toilets.

A shower a day.

Cars and computers...

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