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Dec 05, 2012

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Collards

"Meet our Committees"? That is certainly exciting.

Collards

This is the fourth leg of the stool leading to a vibrant downtown.

We started with the Baseball Stadium, Center City Parks, and Greenway. All this leads to more people visiting, working, and living downtown.

We will not get the Ciba- Geigy, Lorrilard, and Volvos of the future until we are viewed and can deliver as a progressive modern southern city.

All the talk about letting people decide is not relevant. We elected people to make the big decisions for us. That is how our representative democracy works.

Time to step, build something great, just like our predecessors did with the Coliseum, and watch it grow.

Roch

If any of them ran on spending $40M of public funds for a performing arts center, you might have a point. Let the people vote. If it's a good idea, done right, we'll go for it.

Hartzman

"All the talk about letting people decide is not relevant."
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"The liberties of a people never were, nor ever will be, secure
when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them"

Patrick Henry
.
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"The proposal of any new law or regulation
which comes from [businessmen]
ought always to be listened to with great precaution
and ought never to be adopted
till after having been long and carefully examined
not only with the most scrupulous, but with the most suspicious attention

It comes from an order of men
whose interest is never exactly the same with that of the public
who have generally an interest to deceive and even to oppress the public
and who accordingly have, upon many occasions
both deceived and oppressed it"

Adam Smith
.
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"The problem with socialism
is that you eventually run out of other peoples money"

Margaret Thatcher
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What should the electorate expect
from leadership dependent on the status quo?
.
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"A government which robs Peter to pay Paul
can always depend on the support of Paul"

George Bernard Shaw

Fec

Collards is so sure of his convictions that he chooses to comment anonymously, just like those who have pledged the $20M.

John

Yes, Collards. Please, let the City Council in all their infinite fiscal and promotional wisdom build this GPAC to save this Godforsaken city from itself. After all, the hoi-paloi are too stupid to make up their own minds. Build it and they will come. Or else.

Give me a freaking break.

Fec

The hoi-paloi are smart enough to know the diff between a general and limited obligation bond, thanks to us.

Fec

I've about had it with the GPACer notion that the opposition is stupid when in fact we're being lied to. Sunshine kills vampires.

Fec

And if W-S is so fucking eager to build a PAC, then get to it. Of course, some of us still remember the baseball stadium fiasco.

Hugh

Market it and sell it all you want so long it the citizens get to vote for it or against it.

They have 11 months to make their sell. Can Council still pull a fast one and ram it through?

Fec

Absolutely. They can invoke limited obligation bonds at any time.

Jim M

I agree Ed, the marketing of the GPAC concept has been horrible. The "campaign" kicked off in January, yet they just reached 200 Facebook "likes" today (12/5); 244 Twitter "followers"; and only 77 valid "signatures" on their "Support the GPAC" page.

So I'm not sure that this internet thing is working for them as a marketing tool...

Contrast this with the grassroots initiative for a Downtown Greensboro Aquarium. Since 4am Sunday, Dec 2, they have 191 Facebook "likes". Not too bad with no budget or task force...

"Ross Harris has more than 25 years of national and international marketing experience on both the client and agency sides of the business." Source.

Seriously??? I for one would never hire her company to do my marketing...

George Hartzman

cognitive dissonance.

Trust a leader who appears to be financially
and ethically challenged,
to tell everyone not to look
while he rolls our dice?

Some seem to have sold themselves a myth.

Logic defying.

Thank u for sharing,
for the thought provides clarity
more than before, as to what some proponents
r thinking.

David Hoggard

"George Hartzman is the best cutter
and paster of quotes I've ever encountered"

David Hoggard
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"I agree with Hoggard..."

George Hartzman

George Hartzman

r u defending not putting the debt to voters david.

Collards

George has gone from cutting and pasting to texting.......

George Hartzman

begins insults subsequent to viable alternative.

Fred Gregory

Robbie was being honest . This venue for the W&C crowd is still on the table.

The taxpayers don't need no stinking PAC.

You want it, you pay for it.

How about settling for the swimming divas belting out La Boheme or the diving tenors perforning Rigoletto in the deep water at your aquatic center ??

Fred Gregory

Yes that puny video needs a celeb pushig the GPAC.. How about Anna Wintour.

Yeah , that's the ticket. Upper crust enuff for you, Ed.

Doubting Thomas

JimM: Hey, Ross Harris got Robbie Perkins elected mayor, what better reference can you have?.....

Spag

"Several colleagues accused Perkins of not acting very “mayoral” lately. “Our team is broken,” Abuzuaiter said. “I didn’t go into this thing with starry eyes, but I thought we would get some things done.”

Councilman Zack Matheny said, “I am tired of working on dysfunctional councils.”

So when does Perkins start getting the Bill Knight treatment around here?

Roch

Because one is just like the other.

Fec

Actually, Bill Knight caused East Greensboro to become more politically energized, which is having an effect on Robme's effort.

Ed Cone

My guess is that Robbie is going to have to deliver some goodies in order to win friends and influence people.

John

Robbie Perkins is a worm. Didn't you people who supported him see this coming a mile away? He is the epitome of the backroom-insider pol, willing to shake your hand with his right and shiv you in the spleen with his left. He votes in the majority on moving forward with a GPAC referendum (so he can say, "Hey I VOTED for a referendum") but in the same damn breath undercuts the entire thing with his "creative minds" comment.

I salue Matheny, Kee and Abuzuaiter for standing up to this creep.

Ron

If it comes down to a public vote, they are particularly going to have to sell this project to east Greensboro. They need to convince that side of town that this PAC isn't just for rich white folks at their expense and that it will benefit ALL of Greensboro's residents. They need to drive the message that this facility will offer affordable programing for people of all walks of life and not just a music hall for symphony, opera and broadway. They also need to drive the message that this is about creating an environment in Greensboro that will help attract high paying jobs to the area. If we can support spend millions on the Natural Science Center, Aquatic Center, the coliseum and other things "we don't need" I don't see why we can't support this. It seems that people don't have any problems spending millions in other parts of the city. It always seems to be controversial when it comes to downtown even if it's privately funded (ballpark, downtown hotel ect)

Roch

"If it comes down to a public vote, they are particularly going to have to sell this project to east Greensboro."

Mayor Perkins' attempt to hold east Greensboro revitalization projects hostage to get Jim Kee's support should go a long way in that effort.

George Hartzman

a few acquired wants make a right?

is what u want to "sell" true ron?

Mick

I'm already having a downtown-itis flare up. But, if built, that is exactly where it belongs.

The "we don't need" crowd wasn't for the GAC or the Greenway either. A few more may have voted YES for NSC though.

I'll need to be shown the private money that is supposedly available. The Hotel/Motel moola seems problematic as well. Too bad we can't acquire some or all of the 10 million for the park, huh. Would go a loooooong way. Her money... her rules. More power to her I do suppose.

Roch

" If we can support spend millions on the Natural Science Center, Aquatic Center, the coliseum and other things "we don't need" I don't see why we can't support this. It seems that people don't have any problems spending millions in other parts of the city. It always seems to be controversial when it comes to downtown even if it's privately funded (ballpark, downtown hotel ect)"

Quiz time: What separated support for Science Center, Aquatic Center and coliseum improvements from ballpark, downtown hotel,etc? (Hint, it's not geography.)

Mick

BTW... I also agree with putting it on the ballot next year.

Ron

"a few acquired wants make a right?"

All I'm saying is that nobody raised hell, including those on city council who said "its not the right time for a PAC", when council voted for a $20 million dollar bond to be put on the ballot for the Natural Science Center back in 2009. The economy was much worse in 2009 than it is today. What's the difference between $20 million for the Natural Science Center and $20 million for a performing arts center? Both are "wants"

George Hartzman

ron, do u realize u r making a 2 wrongs make a right argument?

Roch

Who is raising hell about the bond being put on the ballot? Ron's making a comparison between two things, one of which is in his imagination.

Andrew Brod

Ron's not talking about putting it on the ballot. He's saying hell is being raised about the PAC itself, or more accurately, about using public money to fund it. The comparison is to the less controversial NSC expansion.

Hartzman points out that I did the econ-impact analysis for the NSC expansion in 3, 2, 1...

Roch

You are a better mind reader then I.

But who is "raising hell?" I see responsible people being appropriately wary of a $20 million dollar pledge that is suspiciously without substantiation or guarantee, asking good questions about the opportunity costs of using economic development funds for this purpose, how free parking becomes a revenue stream and wondering about the actual availability of the hotel/motel tax. That's not raising hell, that's being smart and conscientious.

Andrew Brod

Okay, so Ron sees people "raising hell" while you see them being "appropriately wary."

We're all entitled to our own spin.

Hartzman

Feeling challanged, and wanting to see what can't be found from N&R searches, I came across the following tidbits.
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"An economic impact study indicates that the new facility could bring in $15 to 25 million per year through tourism and staffing."

http://www.constructionequipmentguide.com/Science-Center-Builds-Unique-SciQuarium/19344/

"An economic impact study conducted by Dr. Andrew Brod of the UNCG Center for Business Research and Development concluded that the NSC project will create $20 million dollars of positive economic impact annually and support 253 jobs."

http://greensboro.rhinotimes.com/letters-16981.112113-Vote-yes-for-science-center.html
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"The Grassroots Science Museums Collaborative is partnering with Commerce to expand on the museums' estimated $100 million combined economic impact."

http://cdn.ncscience.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Economic-Development.pdf
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If there are 33 venues covered that the Collaborative says creates $100 million impact,
including Greensboro's natural Science Center,
the new Aquarium has been reported to have 20% of the economic impact
over and above the economic impact already generated
of all 33 of the other venues listed.

WOW.

In fact, according to AMS's $7 million economic impact estimate,
the GPAC will have $13 million less economic impact than the new Aquarium
even though they plan to have 300,000 paying patrons through the doors each year
spending at least $100 for every two patrons.
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No information content provided by the N&R,
our city's paper of record that receives taxpayer money for public notices;

http://www.news-record.com/content/2009/12/03/article/allen_johnson_lessons_swim_center_boosters_can_learn_from_the_natural_sci

http://www.news-record.com/content/2009/05/15/article/jack_hanna_visits_natural_science_center

http://www.news-record.com/content/2009/11/03/article/editorial_its_solid_reputation_preceded_natural_science_center_at_polls

http://www.news-record.com/content/2009/11/03/article/bond_approved_for_natural_science_center

http://www.news-record.com/content/2009/10/24/article/is_guilford_county_about_to_take_on_a_historic_debt_load

http://www.news-record.com/content/2010/01/26/article/city_faces_112_million_budget_deficit

http://www.news-record.com/content/2009/12/18/article/editorial_time_to_move_ahead
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If this is the new normal,
I believe the residents of Greensboro and Guilford County
should not give one penny of taxpayer money to the News & Record
until it returns our history.

We are being condemned to repeat our past mistakes.

I object to their censorship.

I believe it is morally wrong to eliminate historical records.

Hartzman

What's even more amazing, is the imact of the Skating Championships.

More economic impact than the Natural Science Center for an entire year
in one week.
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"U.S. Figure Skating and North Carolina 2011, the local organizing committee for the 2011 AT&T U.S. Figure Skating Championships, announced today the results of professional valuation analyses of the economic and media impacts of the 2011 AT&T U.S. Figure Skating Championships, held in Greensboro, N.C., Jan. 22-30, 2011. Direct economic impacts of the event were nearly $27.4 million"

"I'm not surprised by these strong numbers," said Henri Fourrier, CEO of the Greensboro Convention & Visitors Bureau. "We had visitors from virtually every state and five foreign countries, and hosted more than 161,500 attendees on site at the Greensboro Coliseum Complex."

http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110810&content_id=23018104&vkey=ice_pressrelease

Almost four times the expected economic impact expected by the GPAC,
and as I recall the 161,500 was tickets sold,
as many purchased multiple tickets..
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"Your weekly report from the City Manager includes an economic impact estimate for the Coliseum Complex (including the swimming hole) that puts a multiplier on 68K hotel room-nights said to be filled by Coliseum events thus far in the fiscal year and comes out to $116 million."

http://edcone.typepad.com/wordup/2012/05/i.html
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The GACVB is saying $116.04 million economic impact through April 30.

116.04 x 3 = $348,120,000 economic impact from the Coliseum per year on 203,820 room nights.

= $1,707 economic impact per room night?

Unbelievable?

The city brings in about $3,400,000 per year off a 6% tax.

http://www.greensboro-nc.gov/modules/showdocument.aspx?documentid=10060

There is no way any of the math adds up to what the city brings in
as evidenced in Ed's prior thread.
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And then the politicians get a hold of the numbers;

"I think last year it was close to $200 million of economic impact on events at the coliseum so we need to continue to stay at have a competitive advantage and continue to draw those events to Greensboro," said Greensboro Mayor Robbie Perkins.

And the millions in capitol improvements wouldn't be paid for by taxpayers dollars, but rather money generated from the hotel tax."

http://triangle.news14.com/content/video_stories/656987/greensboro-coliseum-seeking--24-million-in-bonds?ap=1&MP4

Hartzman

The PGA Tour estimates the Wyndham Championship's economic impact on the Triad is between $35 and $45 million.

http://www.digtriad.com/video/1764513934001/1/Wyndham-Championship-Big-Bucks-For-Triad
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In 2005, TREBIC commissioned Dr. Donald R. Judd to answer two questions: (1) What is the economic impact of real estate development in Guilford County? And (2) Does new growth “pay its way” in terms of local government services?

Dr. Judd’s findings were recently published in a report, ‘The Economic Impact of Real Estate Development in Guilford County, NC,’ which provides overall estimates of the economic impacts stemming from six representative development scenarios: single family, condo/town home, apartment, office, retail and industrial development.

Overall, we contribute annually over $1 billion in economic output, over 10,000 jobs and nearly $51 million in local government revenue. In addition, five of these six land uses were found to be a net financial gain to local governments.
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Cone Health Has $2.2 Billion Economic Impact

http://www.conehealth.com/news/2011/cone-health-has-22-billion-economic-impact/
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"The annual impact of High Point University on North Carolina's economy has increased by 190 percent to $464.5 million since 2005"

http://www.bizjournals.com/triad/news/2012/06/27/hight-point-university-tallies.html
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"the Greensboro Performing Arts Center (GPAC) Task Force and AMS Planning & Research Corp presented its economic impact study to city council.

According to the report, the performing arts center would be higly used, self-sustaining adn generate more than $7 million in annual economic impact.

Greensboro can comfortably sustain a performing arts center with between 2,500 and 2,800 seats.

http://origin.digtriad.com/economy/article/228798/248/GPAC-Release-Economic-Impact-Report
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So we want 3,000 seats on half of the origionally proposed acerage?
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"A 2007 economic impact study for the proposed Carolina Thread Trail in Charlotte, NC studied positive impacts from property tax revenues, recreational value, and tourism activity, and it concluded that each $1 spent on trail development will produce an additional $10 in economic impact."

http://downtowngreenway.org/planning/
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"Greensboro Coliseum Complex hosts more than 850 events per year and generates an estimated $155 million (source: Greensboro Convention & Visitors Bureau) in annual economic impact for the region"

http://www.greensboro-nc.gov/modules/showdocument.aspx?documentid=2680
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"Landing FedEx Corp.’s $300 million air-cargo hub at Piedmont Triad International Airport was supposed to deliver a windfall to the region. A report released in 1998 and commissioned by the Greensboro Area Chamber of Commerce estimated a $2.4 billion economic impact and 750 jobs the first year, reaching 1,500 when the 470,000-square-foot hub was at full capacity. A second report, released a year later, lowered the impact to $1.7 billion but had similar job projections.

But those employment predictions have fallen far short."

Those early studies may have unintentionally and artificially inflated what might happen..."

Dan Lynch

http://www.businessnc.com/articles/2012-09/regional-report-triad-september-2012-category/

Hartzman

"The Greensboro Area Convention & Visitors Bureau has projected that, to date (through mid-September, 2012), the economic impact of GAC events is $41,948,694 million"

http://www.greensboroaquaticcenter.com/news/greensboro-aquatic-center-mark-first-anniversary-september
.
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"Greensboro Coliseum Complex hosts more than 850 events per year and generates an estimated $155 million (source: Greensboro Convention & Visitors Bureau) in annual economic impact for the region"

http://www.greensboro-nc.gov/modules/showdocument.aspx?documentid=2680
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The GAC is suddenly doing almost a third of the Coliseum's impact?

Hartzman

NCAA tourney expected to bring $15 million to Greensboro economy

http://myfox8.com/2012/03/15/ncaa-tourney-expected-to-bring-15-million-to-greensboro-economy/

“You have the Women's ACC tournament that we're projecting an economic impact of about $7.8 million, followed by the men's tournament with an economic impact of $18.8 million," said Henri Fourrier, bureau president.

http://triad.news14.com/content/top_stories/622845/tournaments-to-be-economic-shot-in-arm-for-greensboro

"According to Brown, the economic impact of an ACC Men's Basketball Tournament on the area is $26 million."

http://www.digtriad.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=163942

Greensboro, North Carolina announced that it has been chosen to host 4 AAU National Championships with an estimated economic impact of $20,286,600.

http://www.greensborosports.com/2012/12/03/greensboro-nc-lands-four-major-aau-national-championships/

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Looks like Brown must have meant both.

15 NCAA + 26 ACC + 42 GAC + 20 AAU = $103 million,
meaning everything else that happens at the Coliseum is $52 million,
but getting 300,000 to attend GPAC will only bring in $7 million?

Somebody is full of siht.

Spag

It's never enough until we have higher taxes, urban sprawl, traffic congestion, and everything else that goes with being big time.

More, more, more until we become like the big cities people move away from.

The chip on the shoulder of this mid-sized southern town continues to amaze me.

Hartzman

"Durham Performing Arts Center

The City estimates over $28 million annually in economic impact was generated in the first eight months of theater operations."

http://www.garfieldtraub.com/portfolio/durham-performing-arts-center
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28 / 8 = $3.5 million per month

$3.5 million x 12 = $42 million per year for DPAC.

Why only $7 million per year for GPAC?

$35 million less with hundreds more seats?
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Forgot the $27 million for the skating championships.

15 NCAA + 26 ACC + 42 GAC + 20 AAU + 27 Skating = $130 million...

A lot of this stuff is pure propaganda
that people like Robbie Perkins use to line their own pockets,
and our local news orgs swallow and regurgitate as actual news.

And the News and Record just eliminated their history of it.

Nice.


Ed Cone

Sam, some of us remember a time, not so long ago, when GSO was the second-largest city in NC and a leader in arts, industry, and quality of life, and we see no reason to adopt a declinist attitude and embrace of mediocrity.

Thomas

Everyone leaves the big cities because they are so crowded.

Andrew Brod

Well put, Yogi.

Ed Cone

Adding to my own comment about not accepting declinism as GSO's philosophy...that doesn't mean any given project is worth doing, or that real estate promotions should not be viewed with a gimlet eye, or that GSO should not have as its goal being the best possible GSO instead of some other place.

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