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« Guns and ammo | Main | Taxonomies »

Dec 20, 2012

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Bill Yaner

You can gather and assemble all of the statistics you want from around the world - strict gun laws in Norway, lax laws in Switzerland, attacks during the assault rifle ban, etc. etc. ad nauseum. But it won't change the reality before everyone's eyes which is the accelerating rate of these military armed mass shootings in our society, and our's alone sadly.

What for many years happened once in a decade. e.g. the Texas tower shootings, has gone to once a year, and now almost every month. To change nothing in the face of that trend is an immoral acquiescence in the slaughter of innocents.

Hartzman

"immoral acquiescence in the slaughter of innocents."

We as a country did it and are doing it as we speak.

No accountability.

No major Financial Industry bigs in jail after 2008.

Our "immoral acquiescence" may have had a part
in contributing to the current situation.

Graduating college with $40,000 in debt
to get a job at Jimmy Johns is not the way to keep a society stable.

The Federal Reserve is printing money to monetize our deficit
with full complicity of both parties.

Our global financial system is held up by central bank promises
of monetary rescue.

We are out of balance.

It has to get worse before better.

Yes, a messed dude taking out a bunch of little kids
is a symptom, if it starts happening more frequently.

There is broad based unhappiness and dissatisfaction.

I believe we have become a banana republic.

Grant

We can't solve any problem unless we solve all problems.

justcorbly

Too much debate these days boils down to variations of "You are less than perfect, so you cannot criticize me."

Currently, we will see this as demands that we eliminate other threats to children and adults before we deal with the actual problem at hand. This diversion amounts to an insistence that we achieve utopia before we start making weapons of war a bit more difficult for civilians to acquire.

formerly gt

"Please stop telling me that because X kills more children than guns do each year, we need not discuss the availability of certain types of guns."

i don't know that anyone is saying this. what i do hear people saying is that most of proposals being discussed would not have stopped newtown and most, if not all, of the the recent tragedies. the one proposal that may have had helped is the ammo/clip proposal (which i support).

and if stricter gun laws will not stop these tragedies, what's the point of stricter gun laws? show me the data that shows that gun control laws stop these massacres, and i'll join the gun control advocates.

as to the issue of what else kills, it does anger me that we have acquiesced to the slaughter of innocents due to alcohol. i've had an immediate family member and a friend killed by drunk drivers. as a teen i worked with someone who killed two people driving drunk. and, i've known many families ripped apart by alcohol. but, i've not known a single person killed by a gun.

where's your outrage against drinking?

Grant

Here's your data.

Ed Cone

There is always broad-based unhappiness and dissatisfaction, George.

That's not a reason to avoid discussion of specific and incremental approaches to a particular issue.

Grant

Also, the US has managed to substantially reduce deaths associated with alcohol without a second prohibition. Gun deaths are headed in opposite direction, even with falling violent crime rates.

formerly gt

Grant,

that's interesting.

Maybe the first step is to agree on the stats. According to the FBI 8,500 people died from firearm related homicides in 2011. Your bloomberg chart says 34k. It seems improbable that there were 26k suicides and accidents.

and that data is australia. show me where it has worked in the US.

Andrew Brod

Good chart in this Slate piece. It puts gun deaths at just north of 30,000 per year, and I presume that's all gun deaths, not just homicides. And gun deaths have indeed risen gradually over time.

Grant

Um, that seems to be a dodge as nothing remotely close to that has been attempted in the US. We know it also worked in the UK and Japan, which each had less than 60 firearm homicides in 2011. And we do know that the more firearms in a state, the more homicides and suicides.

As Zakaria points out today, the US gun homicide rate is 12 times the OECD average, but we're not 12 times as crazy.

Finally, the FBI stats are incomplete. Here's the CDC totals.

Hugh

Criminals and those with criminal intent prefer gun free zones with no security.

Hugh

Accidental firearm deaths could be mitigated with mandatory firearms training in schools.

sean coon

right. so now every child must learn how to use a gun in case they stumble upon pops unlocked weapon. at what age does this program begin? 4 years-old? because kids that young have shot themselves or a sibling.

how about putting the onus of responsibility on the gun owner to lock their guns up. i'm all for the extreme route of making them an accessory to whatever happens if someone else uses their gun, but i'm wide open to other thoughts on the matter.

justcorbly

The kind of logic that says if gun laws keep guns away from people who would otherwise use guns to kill other people -- in whatever circumstances -- then we would prevent those killings, seems pretty irrefutable to me.

You cannot kill someone with a gun if you do not have a gun.

The chances of a kid accidentally killing himself with Daddy's gun are reduced to zero if Daddy has no gun.

The chances of some damaged suburban adolescent using a thinly-disguised military weapon to kill himself and dozens of children are reduced to zero if that damaged adolescent does not have that weapon.

Yes, some people will find other ways to kill, with knives, baseball bats, etc. That sounds like a vastly preferable scenario to me.

I don't think we need to resort to statistics to accept any of that.

Grant

It's common sense. Confirmed by multivariate regression analysis.

Bill Cunninghan

Well Sam Donaldson didn't kill anyone, thank God, while drunk behind the wheel of a 5000 pound machine. Jerk sober .. Jerk impaired

John

I am afraid the laws passed in the wake of the terrible massacre in Connecticut will make us all feel real good, give us a sense of comfort, help us sleep at night, and be utterly useless.

"For every complex problem, there is an answer that is neat, simple, and wrong."
H.L. Mencken

I do agree that a discussion should happen about gun control. But we can't derail this conversation with nicey-nice bills and laws that do nothing to solve the problem.

It's a problem that runs far deeper than the absurd discussion of "assault weapons," which is a political term, fabricated for discussions such as this.

Address mental health, address the culture. Knee-jerk solutions solve nothing.

sean coon

"address the culture."

methinks tackling the issue of a gun loving country fits that concept pretty squarely.

Brian

It is a fallacy to ever think that laws alone are adequate answers to a problem, but be sure they act as significant leverage.

Hugh

"right. so now every child must learn how to use a gun in case they stumble upon pops unlocked weapon. at what age does this program begin? 4 years-old? because kids that young have shot themselves or a sibling.

how about putting the onus of responsibility on the gun owner to lock their guns up. i'm all for the extreme route of making them an accessory to whatever happens if someone else uses their gun, but i'm wide open to other thoughts on the matter."

Sean, it's not an either or situation; I agree, adults have to be responsible, but what is wrong with teaching kids gun safety? We teach them to swim, look both ways before crossing streets, not to talk to strangers, and to not play with matches.

The rules: Always treat a gun as if it's loaded, never put your finger on the trigger unless on target, never point the gun intentionally or unintentionally at anyone, Proper ways to carry a weapon and how to hand it off to another person. Why does being taught these points produce such fear in adults?

Hartzman

Silencing the Science on Gun Research

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1487470

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