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Nov 05, 2012

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MojoNixon

When you're desperate, you're desperate.

Spag

Screw Western Civilization. Voting Obama is the best "revenge" against it.

sean coon
sittinginthemiddle.

We should all give up any morals or values and just become slobbering liberals.

sean coon

and then there's the idiotic, on cue.

Dave Ribar

Hmm, Paul Ryan speaking about the "Judeo-Christian, Western civilization values that made us such a great and exceptional nation" to a group founded by Ralph Reed who promoted these great values.

Roch

And there is the obvious, which I won't point out because it would involve stooping to the same low level.

polifrog

Yeah, that old melting-pot approach was so divisive.

What we need is some more of that liberal based new-tyme-racial-balkinization and more derision toward the American history of inclusiveness as "otherism".

What liberals do in attacking the foundation of individual spirit and liberty is nothing short of immoral.

"Give us your tired give, your poor, your huddled masses" -- "otherism"? Really?

Like racism, "otherim"'s fertile ground is the liberal mind.

Grant

"more derision toward the American history of inclusiveness as 'otherism'"

More obscurantist than Derida. Awesome.

Andrew Brod

"Like racism, 'otherim''s fertile ground is the liberal mind."

Now that's on cue. Talk about racism and Frog will assert that blacks are the real racists. Talk about sexism and Frog will claim that women are the real sexists. So of course if the topic is "otherism," the real otherists are liberals, the people who first raised the concern.

Apparently the only way not to be a ____ist in Frog's world is never to mention _____ in the first place.

You know who's never a racist or sexist or whatever in Frog's world? White males, because they're generally the victims of racism, sexism, and apparently now otherism too.

Dave Ribar

Poli:

Reed et al. shortened Emma Lazarus' famous line to simply "Gimme Five."

More of Reed's values "I wish those moronic Tiguas were smarter in their political contributions. I’d love us to
get our mitts on that moolah!! Oh well, stupid folks get wiped out."

Spag

Get "revenge" against the "others"...Vote Obama.

Now that's a unifying idea.

But it's really Mitt Romney's fault. He's the one dividing people into "us" and "them"...

bubba

".....and then there's the idiotic, on cue", he self-identifies.

prell

I stopped reading at Ralph Reed. Gary Bauer provides more lulz.

Patrick

If my guy wins, I think we should all unite behind him.

polifrog

How is Ralph Reed germane to a discussion concerning national identity?

Ed Cone

RTFL, as the kids used to say.

prell

"How is Ralph Reed germane to a discussion concerning national identity."

I must be in the wrong thread. Disregard.

polifrog

I'll make the question easier.

How is any individual germane to a discussion concerning national identity in terms of the liberal concept of otherism?

justcorbly

Should I say that rather a lot of the Founding Fathers, (and, more than likely, all those unsung Founding Mothers, would not have come close to securing the approval of the Guardian of Lynchburg and other assorted Biblical literalists?

Of course, for conservatives who walk away from any debate they cannot frame to their liking, that's all pointless. What they believe happened 230 years ago is real, not what actually happnened.

Ed Cone

One of the many flaws in the J-C tradition/Western Civ argument as advanced is that the bogeymen (e.g., socialism, secular government) are themselves products of those traditions and that civilization. You might make a case against them, but that case is not that they are alien to the tradition or western civ.

bubba

"You might make a case against them, but that case is not that they are alien to the tradition or western civ."

And tell us just how native they are to the American experience?

Hint: Even Howard Zinn was not so arrogant that he could make a statement like that in support of his worldview.

bubba

"Of course, for conservatives who walk away from any debate they cannot frame to their liking, that's all pointless."

Yes, of course, corbs. That's in contrast to people like you, who make hit and run statements like that without backing it up, and then claim they were misquoted when confronted, or change the subject entirely to avoid being held accountable for their potshot techniques.

Account Deleted

Killing natives is a Judeo-Christian value that's native to the American experience.

Bill Yaner

Excellent reminder, Jeffrey. The first of our settlers were the most fervent fundamentalist Christians of their day. So much so, actually, that their fellow Europeans couldn't wait to get them on a boat and wave bye, bye.

The American experience from the get go was about narrow intolerance, a stream that runs strongly through our country to this day.

Spag

Yes, America sucks. We really need to mold ourselves after some other country.

Should I say that rather a lot of the electorate votes for conservatives and don't care at all about what Billy Graham or Ralph Reed say.

The ignorance that liberals display when it comes to what defines conservatives is the product of a small social circle and a narrow mind. It's groupthink actually, the ultimate form of "otherism".

Unfortunately, they are simply too arrogant and insulated to see it.

Ed Cone

America Sucks! No, America Rulez!

Now that very serious and on-topic argument is settled, yet Ryan is still wrong to suggest that Obama's programs are somehow alien to Western Civilization, rather than very much a product of it.

sean coon

right... and when hoggard or wharton or fec, etc. prove to be a variant to your definition of conservatism, you're so very inclusive.

hypocrite.

Andrew Brod

Spag just did a Frog: Liberals are the real otherists.

Sadly, liberals understand conservatives all too well.

polifrog
Should I say that rather a lot of the Founding Fathers
Where the Founding Fathers not reflecting an America in all but name? Or perhaps the Founding Fathers have been adopted by America much as it has adopted the American flag - representatives of something uniquely American.

Of course the Founding Fathers as such are not an individual, but rather a group -- much as we are.

That aside, our shared American identity is not historically tied to "otherism".

I would think this is obvious being a nation that has welcomed all who enter legally to its shores.

As Brod might note, in liberal land up is down and welcoming all to our nation is really just an example of our nation's historical propensity toward "otherism".

"Otherism" - at home only in the liberal mind.

Spag

I remember when Billy Graham offered a prayer at Bill Clinton's inaugural. That Clinton fellow was obviously very far removed from Western Civilization and a threat to the United States.

And let's not forget the Rev. Jesse Jackson. Those liberal lemmings take all of their cues from him.

Of course, Ryan was talking about the expansion of government which was something that the United States was founded to counteract. Big government is NOT an ideal of Western enlightenment.

The part of Ryan's quote that Ed selectively left out:

"[It's a path that] grows government, restricts freedom and liberty and compromises those values"

polifrog

Ed Cone:

One of the many flaws in the J-C tradition/Western Civ argument as advanced is that the bogeymen (e.g., socialism, secular government) are themselves products of those traditions and that civilization. You might make a case against them, but that case is not that they are alien to the tradition or western civ.

What was it that Ryan said?

...those Judeo-Christian, Western civilization values that made us such a great and exceptional nation in the first place.
Not your assumptive 'all', but "those". Those, by definition, do not include yours. Including yours does, indeed, create a conflict.

So, don't include your socialism or what you call "secular government" (your euphemism for atheocracy) in Ryan's use of J-C tradition/Western Civ and you will find that there is no conflict.


Ed Cone

Ryan's selective view is the point.

He's pretending that the values and traditions he lionizes spawned only the policies he supports, when in fact the policies he opposes also emerged from the same culture.

Patrick

The reason the founding fathers and the greatest generation were so much better than we is they all agreed about which of the Judeo-Christian, Western values were the coolest ones, so they never had to disagree or compromise about anything.

Spag

"He's pretending that the values and traditions he lionizes spawned only the policies he supports, when in fact the policies he opposes also emerged from the same culture."

Maybe (or maybe not), but certainly socialism has been rejected by the West. Perhaps Ed can provide some examples of successful socialism, or socialist societies that haven't resulted in authoritarian regimes- which is contrary to enlightened Western thought.

Ed's last argument is also non-sensical because it could be applied to almost anything. You don't discount the traditions and values that grandma and grandpa left you simply because they also produced a crazy uncle.

The Beatles also released "Revolution #9". Under Ed's theory, The Beatles suck too because they also produced that junk.

Andrew Brod

You need to be given examples of socialist societies that haven't resulted in authoritarian regimes? Conservatives have been telling us for four years that Obama is in the process of making America a socialist country. Are you going to hang your hat on that "in the process"?

Well okay, then there's Europe. Conservatives have often denigrated democratic socialism as practiced in a number (most?) western European countries. Prior to the financial/monetary crisis over there, many of those countries were delivering excellent standards of living and quality of life, without authoritarian government. As for their current plight, it's not their socialism that's driven them back into recession.

Ed Cone

The truncheon-swinging enforcers of police states like Canada and Denmark make Sam's point for him.

Also, no.

And the Beatles thing does indeed show how silly the Thus, X Sucks! argument would be, if anyone was actually making it. But that's not the critique of Ryan's case presented here.

That critique is two-fold: That it's flatly incorrect to place Obama's policies outside the Judeo-Christian/Western tradition, and that the attempt do so amounts to Otherism, which has flourished among certain critics of this president.

Want to say Obama's policies are bad, and Romney/Ryan's good? Have at it. But that's very different from saying what Ryan said.

bubba

"He's pretending that the values and traditions he lionizes spawned only the policies he supports, when in fact the policies he opposes also emerged from the same culture."

Oh yes, of course, Professor Zinn.

Can I help you re-write more American history? I ascribe to be an agenda hack just like you.

Andrew Brod

I think you're already hacking up an agenda.

polifrog

Ed Cone:

That critique is two-fold: That it's flatly incorrect to place Obama's policies outside the Judeo-Christian/Western tradition, and that the attempt do so amounts to Otherism, which has flourished among certain critics of this president.

Nice. But you are attempting to relabel Obama's unAmericanism as "otherism" and in the process diminishing American patriotism as racism-lite in defense of socialism and atheocracy.

An American politician, believing in American values running in an American election referencing "those Judeo-Christian, Western civilization values that made us such a great and exceptional nation in the first place”.

Context -- American values.

Unlike most liberals who first question "What are American values?", you simply ignore that American context so as to insert your and Obama's unAmericanism in it's stead.

Your socialism and what you call "secular government", more accurately known as atheocracy, is foreign to the American experience.

Account Deleted

Here is another J/C value native to the American experience.

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