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Jun 13, 2012

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bubba

"....but that's an interesting op-ed."

This: is interesting, too.

"Some liberals might argue that this negative view of Mormonism is a response to perceived Mormon intolerance on the gay marriage issue. But it seems to go beyond that. It’s hard to imagine any other religious belief of a presidential candidate being mocked in the same way Romney’s Mormonism has been. There is an undercurrent of hostility in the ridicule that is troubling."

Ed Cone

I think we all agree that liberals are terrible and that there is no anti-Mormom sentiment in any other part of our society.

But that's not really the thrust of the article.

formerly gt

"interesting" in that the author goes out of his way to offend Christians while making his point that Christianity and Mormonism differ?

Or "interesting" because he's definitely not a Romney backer and he seems to be trying to stir friction between Christians and Mormons at a time when Romney must have the evangelical vote?


Ed Cone

He did seem to be taking digs for the sake of doing so, and there's an obvious election year news-hook (he cites it himself), but the actual argument he was making about where his religion fits into the taxonomy of faiths was what caught my eye -- I had not seen that argument expressed before by a Mormon.

prell

"It’s hard to imagine any other religious belief of a presidential candidate being mocked in the same way Romney’s Mormonism has been."

I agree with this. These quotes are just shameless. "Don't Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil are brothers?" - Mike Huckabee, 2007. "Why is Mormonism off limits?" - Santorum adviser, Feb. 2012. "Romney's liberal support for homosexuality is not only at doctrinal odds with traditional Judaism and Christianity, it's even at odds with latter-day cults like Islam and Mormonism." - Rev. Huey Mills and Ray Moore (Santorum backers).

It's been fun watching the Romney haters on the far-right gravitate towards his candidacy, esp. the "Vote Newt" and Santorum dolts. The right have only themselves to blame for making a candidate's religion an "issue." Remember, JFK was in cahoots with the Vatican and Obama is a Muslim. Vote Tea Party beeatch!!!

Bill Bush

Funny how Edith Hamilton's classic MYTHOLOGY (title indicated, not shouting) has no chapter on Christianity or Mormonism or Judaism. I wonder if she just found it easier to deal with the ones that were dead enough not to cause trouble.

bubba

Let's not lose track of the fact that it's people like Cone and Prell who are going to continue to bring this issue up whenever convenient. Articles like the one Cone links above give them ample opportunity.

They're the ones who love to use stuff like this, and when called upon it, their reponse is "who, us?" Fortunately, the voting public appears to be wise to side shows these.

Try something else, gang.....this one's outlived its useful life.

Marshall

You really care what "David V. Mason, an associate professor of theater at Rhodes College".....theater...really..sigh... thinks about religion? Ok then...

sittinginthemiddle

"I think we all agree that liberals are terrible"- Ed

Definitely, along with being worthless moochers and parasites.

prell

"Let's not lose track of the fact that it's people like Cone and Prell who are going to continue to bring this issue up whenever convenient."

That's not fair, Bob. I was merely agreeing with the article you linked to. Liberal Democrats like Mike Huckabee, Rick Santorum's advisors, and evangelical pastors who fawn over Santorum need to stop hating on Mormons.

Ed Cone

It's not his profession that make his heterodox views interesting, Marshall, it's the fact that he's a committed Mormon who is challenging one of the major public messages of Mormonism.

bubba

"That's not fair, Bob. I was merely agreeing with the article you linked to."

Yes, of course. That would explain your specific words and phrases used in paragraph two and three......it was just an effort on your part to provide fair and balance "context", I'm sure.

I'll remember that for future reference.

bubba

"...it's the fact that he's a committed Mormon who is challenging one of the major public messages of Mormonism."

Thus giving you an opportunity to stir up something over nothing.

We all understand perfectly how that sort of thing works with you.

prell

Bob: Why are you all of the sudden rallying around the Romney candidacy? You stated on Heir Guarino's blog a few months ago that you were going to vote for Newton Leroy in the May 8th primary. Now you're defending and fawning all over Mitt Romney? What gives?

polifrog
Now you're defending and fawning all over Mitt Romney? What gives?

Are you unaware that Newt pulled out of the race?

bubba

"Are you unaware that Newt pulled out of the race?"

By Soapy's logic, I should hate Romney.

formerly gt

"It's not his profession that make his heterodox..."

To be fair Ed, Nancy Pelosi states she's a committed Catholic. But her public actions are often in conflict with Catholic doctrine. And Obama attended Jeremiah Wright's church but has publicly disavowed much of what Wright preached when it became widely known.

So, the only thing I know about Mason is that he disdains Christians and Christianity and that he doesn't care for Romney. He may no more be representative of any train of serious Mormon thought than the Westboro Baptist Church is representative of Christianity.

Just curious Ed, or any of the professed progressives here, what conservative publications do you regularly read?

Billy Jones

A vote for Romney is a vote for Obama is a vote for Romney-- they're both one in the same, both in the pockets of the corporate overlords and both indebted to their masters, big pharma, banking, oil and insurance.

Spag

The story appeared in the NYT for the purpose of hurting Romney, just as some of his primary opponents did. The strategy is to divide and conquer. Now that there are no critics on the Right left to attack Romney on this issue, the Left is picking up the slack and pretending indifference by saying "Santorum did it".

Bubba rightly points out that this won't be the end. Obama's surrogates will continue to indirectly attack Romney in this fashion. One has to ask why the NYT chose to print this article written by someone that is obscure and not even a political actor. Mason concedes that his views aren't shared with the majority of Mormons so who is he speaking to and what purpose does the Times have in publishing it ? They did so for the same reason Ed linked to it- to keep it as a campaign issue by hoping the attack on Christians will create a divide in Romney's support. It was wrong when Santorum and Co. did it and it is wrong now. Obama and his ranks won't come out and say they think Mormons are weird. Instead, the strategy is to send the message to evangelicals that Romney isn't one of them. This is no different than those who try to undermine Obama by claiming he's a Muslim. If Romney was black, this kind of article would be labeled as an appeal to racism, you know, "he's not one of us".

It's a creative strategy- find an obscure associate professor who claims "we're not like them" to send remind a group of people that this must also mean "they aren't like us".

Anyway, why pick on the Mormons when picking on Scientologists is so much more fun ?

polifrog

Spag:

Anyway, why pick on the Mormons when picking on Scientologists is so much more fun ?

Perhaps it has to do with the fact that 4 in 10 Liberals Hold Anti-Mormon Bias.

Liberalism has become far more repulsive under Obama than I could have ever predicted

Account Deleted

Do you people have any idea how many evangelical Christians hold an anti-Mormon bias? Having been born into a split Mormon-Evangelical family I can tell you it is a hot topic.

formerly gt

"Do you people have any idea how many evangelical Christians hold an anti-Mormon bias?"

Reading the article Poli referenced it looks like ~ 33% ;-)

But all that is beside the point. The point is that some liberals and some in the liberal media, and seemingly even Mason are trying to use Mormonism as wedge issue to fracture support for Romney.

As Spag and others have pointed out, this would be widely condemned if the issue was race.

It's really a disgraceful tactic. Will you condemn it?

Thomas

I may have missed it, but I didn't see in the article that the writer said he was anti-Romney, unless this, "though I suspect that Mr. Romney is such a typical politician..." is what you all mean.

Spag - "This is no different than those who try to undermine Obama by claiming he's a Muslim." It is different because Romney is actually a Mormon. Does saying he's a Mormon undermine him?

bubba

"I may have missed it, but I didn't see in the article that the writer said he was anti-Romney....."

Irrelevant to the point being made.

Roch

"Spag - 'This is no different than those who try to undermine Obama by claiming he's a Muslim.' It is different because Romney is actually a Mormon. Does saying he's a Mormon undermine him?" -- Thomas

Ditto.

polifrog

I believe of more interest than the 4 in 10 liberals with an anti-Mormon is how those numbers have changed over time, 2007 to 2012.

Evangelicals - the number has dropped. 36% to 33%
Non Religious - the number increased. 21% to 41%
Liberals- the number has increased. 28% to 43%
Moderates- the number increased. 22% to 32%

It is clear that the more religious a group is, the more accepting of Mormonism a group is while the opposite is true of the less religious.

Additionally:

It clear that the numbers correlate quite well with one's likely choices regarding media.

Those most likely to watch FOX express a reduction in anti-Mormon sentiments while those most likely to watch liberal outlets express an increase in anti-Mormon biases. Even the magnitude of the change between liberals and moderates supports this observation. Moderates expressed considerably less an increase in anti-Mormon sentiment than liberals.

One is left to conclude that liberal news outlets and, hence, liberalism is the source of any rise in anti-Mormonism in America today.

polifrog

Thomas:

Does saying he's a Mormon undermine him?"

Liberals certainly have been lead to believe so.

Account Deleted

Being quite familiar with Mormonism and having had innumerable discussions with fervent Mormons about this issue, it seemed to me the author was basically saying that it was time for Mormons to stop wanting to badly to be embraced by the general American Christian fold and stand on their own. The author used several examples of Mormonism in the spotlight as the foundation for his argument that general American Christianity may be on the decline while Mormonism has a solid foundation to build its future on.

A lot of that is on a fairly deep level of theology so I can understand how it is much easier to swarm to the words "Mitt Romney" and claim that the intent of the article was political.

Do carry on then.

Account Deleted

It also seems that the article Ed has linked do was in response to this article.

More here.

formerly gt

"Being quite familiar with Mormonism"

since you are quite familiar with Mormonism, i'll ask. Is his view widely shared in the Mormon church? Is it an important topic for Mormons? Why do you think he felt it was necessary to demean Christians in the article?

I think it's naive to believe that the point of the Times publishing the piece was anything other than an attempt to fracture support for Romney. Or perhaps they just enjoy pitting two faith communities against one another.

Account Deleted

There is a bitter history of Mormon's being denigrated, ostracized, driven out and even murdered in American history. I know several my age (40s) that I was raised with who have a sarcastic view of being considered members of a cult or some strange other. So I do think there is a fighting spirit among many Mormons who are no longer willing to accept being put down for their religious beliefs. Christians have demeaned Mormons for about 180 years and they haven't gone away. Their ability to reach out to minority communities is a huge part of their ability to move forward despite the overwhelming barriers erected in their path over the centuries.

Spag

Highlighting Romney's Mormonism when trying to convey that he is "not like us" is no different than claiming Obama is a Muslim and "not like us". Those who claim Obama is a Muslim actually believe that he is a Muslim so it is immaterial whether that is true- their purpose is the same - send the message that he's not like us. The Left said it was a strategy rooted in racism. I don't see the difference.

Mason's article boils down to "Christians are hateful and bigoted people and if they don't want to accept me, to hell with them because I don't want to accept them anyway. Hopefully Mitt Romney will eventually wake up and tell them to kiss his ass, too". Purpose? Anger Christians and raise suspicions about Romney.

Roch

"Highlighting Romney's Mormonism when trying to convey that he is 'not like us'... yada yada" -- Sam

Who is doing that?

And really? You "don't see the difference" between people drawing conclusions about Obama based on false information and a person of Romney's religion discussing Romney's religion? You are not very discerning.

Thomas

So if I actually believe Romney is a robot and so claim he's "not like us", it's the same as talking about his self-identified religious affiliation?

formerly gt

"Highlighting Romney's Mormonism when trying to convey that he is 'not like us'... yada yada" -- Sam

Who is doing that?

Roch, if you're really oblivious to this happening then you really need to reconsider your sources for news. Because apparently you're ill informed.

bubba

Meanwhile, here is how mainstream evangelicals feel about Mormons. They invite one of the more publicly prominent LDS members to be their commencement speaker.

Among other things, he said

"People of different faiths, like yours and mine, sometimes wonder where we can meet in common purpose, when there are so many differences in creed and theology. Surely the answer is that we can meet in service, in shared moral convictions about our nation stemming from a common worldview."

But to people like Soapy, that sort of belief shouldn't cause people who supported Perry, Gingrich, Paul, Bachmann, Santorum, and Cain to support Romney.

sean coon

Not everything has a political agenda, folks. An editorial in the NYTimes about one man's experience and views on being Mormon seems to be an opportunity to present interesting insight on the subject matter. Not quite sure how it was damaging to the Romney campaign.

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