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Oct 27, 2011

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Andrew Brod

Sounds logical to me.

michele

Good for Mississippi!

Dave Ribar

Slate has some great questions about the implications of Mississippi's ill-conceived (sorry couldn't resist) legislation.

The first four are:
1. If you are legal person at fertilization, does that mean you could drink at 20 years and three months? Could you drive at 15 and three months? Could you vote at age 17, and collect Social Security at 64?
2. For legal purposes, would your birthday still be your “birth” day? Or your fertilization day?
3. Could you get a tax deduction for your dependent embryo?
4. Could you post ultrasound photos of your fetus (naked) on Facebook? Or would that be child pornography?

sean

do you know how to spell ippississim?

Brian

How long before a woman has a miscarriage in Mississippi before she is prosecuted for killing it?

Brian

I fail to see the Goodness in this Michele, so feel free to elaborate on why this legislation is good for all women in Mississippi and not just some women who think they know what's best for other women.

michele

I would die for my babies. That's as it should be, not the other way around.

Bill Yaner

Here we go!

sean

michele, i don't think there's a parent alive who wouldn't disagree with you... except this isn't about infants in diapers or toddlers or pre-teens or obnoxious teens.

Brian

I appreciate your beliefs Michele, I'm just surprised that the proponents can't possibly see that there's room for people to believe otherwise. My guess is that if this law passes and passes its appeals through the courts that you will see an increase in "miscarriages" in MS.

polifrog

I do not understand the calculus that results in a woman's "right to choose" (a single "right") to be of greater value than another human's right to enjoy all rights including the most basic ... life.

How is it acceptable that one woman exercising her right to choose is allowed to infringe on her unborn daughter's right to free speech, right "to choose", right to...?

Where is a man's right to interest in his progeny in all of this calculation? Is it appropriate for a right to be bestowed upon only half the population?

It seems to me Mississippi simplifies the irrational by recognizing life as life.

michele

I recognize that not everyone agrees with my opinion. But I appreciate Mississippi's efforts to protect babies. And they are babies, from the moment they're conceived.

Billy Jones

The real issue: Is the any mention in Initiative 26 as to Mississippi's inclusion or rejection of corporations as persons?

Andrew Brod

In Jewish tradition, the fetus isn't viable until after it graduates from med school.

Thank you.

Brian

We will be putting an awful lot of people in jail....that's one way to create jobs. Question is private prisons or taxpayer funded prisons?

98% of Catholics use birth control

Ed Cone

I love my kids almost as much as Michele loves hers, and I think people should have access to birth control.

The state should stay out of the bedroom.

A.C.

"The state should stay out of the bedroom."

^^This.

polifrog
I think people should have access to birth control.

Are you directing the discussion toward birth control? If so, before or after conception?

Ed Cone

The post is about birth control. Hence the title, "Banning birth control."

I would disagree with the law and its definitions in any case, but my comments are about the possible impact on access to birth control.

Justcorbly

They're cloning people in Mississippi? Who knew? Maybe they can send them to Alabama to pick the tomatoes now that Alabama is on record as not liking its customary tomato pickers.

Justcorbly

You know, if we're gonna criminalize contraception, I think we should go the next logical step and make sex mandatory, but only if you're straight and married. If you aren't sex should be a felony.

bubba

Michele, just ignore all these "smart guys" who pose as "experts", and always manage to frame the discussion on this issue to ignore the atrocities they condone. They're not worth engaging when they descend into their usual babble of defending that which is indefensible.

Don't believe it? Watch their response to my post.

Their moral vacuity is simply astounding.

sean

i find it interesting that a huge moral issue such as cloning was slipped into the language of this bill and that no one seems to have an issue with it.

go mississippi!!!

polifrog
The post is about birth control. Hence the title, "Banning birth control."

I would disagree with the law and its definitions in any case, but my comments are about the possible impact on access to birth control.


What you guys seem to willing to call birth control, namely ending growth after conception, is abortion.

This is therefore a discussion about abortion.

I do not understand the calculus that results in a woman's "right to choose" (a single "right") to be of greater value than another human's right to enjoy all rights including the most basic ... life.

How is it acceptable that one woman exercising her right to choose is allowed to infringe on her unborn daughter's right to free speech, right "to choose", right to...?

Where is a man's right to interest in his progeny in all of this calculation? Is it appropriate for a right to be bestowed upon only half the population?

It seems to me Mississippi simplifies the irrational by recognizing life as life.

There is nothing ambiguous about this.

michele

Bottom line: Killing babies is wrong. Everyone knows that, although many won't admit it. People try to rationalize it and intellectualize it and justify it. But the truth is the truth. Abortion is murder.

A.C.

"Bottom line: Killing babies is wrong. Everyone knows that, although many won't admit it. People try to rationalize it and intellectualize it and justify it. But the truth is the truth. Abortion is murder."

Is there a difference between a zygote and a baby? Just curious. I don't recall jamming out in ma's womb when I was a blood clot at two weeks, but I guess it was ragin'. How would one raise and foster a zygote?

michele

A baby is a baby is a baby. Fertilization = baby.

michele
A.C.

"A baby is a baby is a baby. Fertilization = baby."

So, would you foster and nurture a bloodclot or zygote like you would a "baby," if a woman gave "birth" to such after weeks 1 and 2? It's a baby, no? It's a living thing, right? I raged in mom's uterus when I was a month old. No nans. I always remind my mom about month 2....lulz.....was a wild one. She was spinning Fogelberg vinyl while I was begging for Styx.

michele

Deception, lies and subterfuge don't negate truth. Abortion is murder. Go Mississippi!

polifrog

AC:

Is there a difference between a zygote and a baby? Just curious.

Zygote, Blastocyst, Embryo, Neonate, Infant, Toddler, Play age, Preadolescence, Adolescence, Adult, Geriatric...

All of the above are stages in the development of a human. So, no, there is no difference between a zygote and a baby aside from development.

Of course, science itself says that a zygote is human via DNA.

To argue other wise is not only a denial of science, but immoral.

and:

How would one raise and foster a zygote?
From the nonsensical nature of your question I can only assume that you believe a zygote grows into a ... zygote. A zygote is actually the first stage in the development of a human.

===================

There is no moral defense for abortion or the more palatable "birth control".

That our Supreme Court found a Constitutional right to abortion that exists only in the shadows words in a Constitution that is constructed so as to protect the life, liberty and property of the citizenry should be a warning to all of the fragility of our Constitution. In short, that abortion is sanctioned by government should be frightening.

Michele is correct, abortion is murder.


sean

it's kinda sad that personal ideology can't be put aside to allow women to be in control of their own bodies. even worse is when women are guilty of such actions.

the craziest part of this whole issue is that i don't think there's a person alive who advocates *for* abortions -- from a woman who has had one to a doctor who has performed one. no one argues that a potential life isn't being snuffed out, which is the spiritual equivalent to believing that an *actual* life being ended. it's not a whoop-dee damn do choice to have such a procedure, no matter how A.C. or others might characterize the explicit nature of a zygote / fetus' state of life. as a man, the last thing i'd want is for the woman i'm with to have an abortion, but unlike polifrog i do recognize that my role in the creation process ends with conception. the zygote / fetus is in *her* uterus. whether i like it or not, from that pint on, it's not my decision. given the circumstance, i might have input, but no, i don't expect to make the final call.

all that said, the moral guilt that is heaped upon the people who provide information about choices within the context of a safe environment for such healthcare is beyond reprehensible. if there's no circumstance -- incest, rape, chance of the mother dying, crappy life conditions, etc -- that one would have an abortion, that's perfectly fine with me. for the life of me, i just can't understand why it doesn't work the other way around... do people honestly believe that overturning roe v. wade would rid this country of (then dangerous) abortions? do people actually believe that if this bill becomes law in mississippi that residents wouldn't flee to neighboring states to get IUDs or the morning after pill?

the woman's healthcare genie is out of the bottle, people. good luck trying to cram it back in.

bubba

See what I mean, Michele?

Brian

If you start out that the only solution is the complete elimination of any and all abortions, you are predetermined to go down the road they are going down in Mississippi or like we've seen in NC and VA this year. No measure of legislative action will eliminate abortions, just as taking all of the guns off the streets will stop people from being killed by them or, or declaring a war on drugs will stop people from using drugs, or prohibiting alcohol will keep people from drinking it. We are humans and trying to legislate in this manner does nothing to achieve the goal you really should have which is to minimize and encourage a reduction in the number of abortions.

This law would create nothing but fear and confusion which is a shame when you realize that people on both sides of the issue want to decrease the number of abortions.

Again, how long until a woman or man is prosecuted by a zealous prosecutor for killing a "person" lost due to a miscarriage under this law? It's a shameful, careless piece of legislation and to top it off with cheerleading of "Go Mississippi" like it is a football game to be won or lost shows a lack of respect and compassion.

bubba

For those who insist on mis-representing the issues, abortion is NOT about "women's health care".

polifrog
it's kinda sad that personal ideology can't be put aside to allow women to be in control of their own bodies. even worse is when women are guilty of such actions.

It is not ideology but rather morality that you describe as being sadly difficult to set aside. It is morality that leads you to say "no one argues that a potential life isn't being snuffed out" and "as a man, the last thing i'd want is for the woman i'm with to have an abortion". However it is a personal ideology that restrains you from referring to life as life and instead refer to it as "potential life". If a zygote were found on Mars it would be declared that not only life had been found, but that a higher life form had been found.

As for allowing "women to be in control of their own bodies", that's fine as long as their body is not being shared. Anyone's control over their body ends when that control infringes on the rights of another. Death (abortion) is an infringement.

and,

but unlike polifrog i do recognize that my role in the creation process ends with conception. ... i don't expect to make the final call.
So, a man's responsibility goes on hiatus for nine months. For too many men responsibility goes on walkabout for nine months only to never return. It is not in our nation's interest to foster the notion that a father's role ends when the fun is over and responsibility begins. Therefore, I do not expect to "make the final call"; I expect there to be no final call to be made.

and,

do people honestly believe that overturning roe v. wade would rid this country of (then dangerous) abortions?

What if instead of abortion meaning what it does today it meant that murderers could take their victims to a facility so as a to humanely bring their victim's life to a close? Would we then have people attempting to protect the procedure for fear that murder would be conducted inhumanely without the procedure?

michele

Brian, abortion shows a lack of respect and compassion for babies.

And calling abortion a "women's healthcare" issue is denial and deception. I am amazed that an enlightened society in 2011 is still sanctioning the slaughter of its children. It's sick and barbaric.

Brian

That's all fair and well Michele - we disagree about which one of us is respectful and compassionate. That being said, do you think Initiative 26 is the best way to stop abortion? Do you think abortion can be stopped?

And still waiting for bubs,froggy or you to answer the miscarriage question I've raised twice already. If this law passes, it could subject men and women to be prosecuted for miscarriages, are you okay with that?

Roch101

As Michele wishes, this initiative would make abortion murder. Mississippi has the death penalty for murder. Michele is advocating a policy that would have women who have an abortion put to death.

Think.

michele

"What about miscarriage?" "What about birth control?" "Do moms who abort their babies get the death penalty!?!" Camouflage. Real issue: Infanticide. Baby killing. Murder. No argument, no distraction, no deception will ever change the reality that it's wrong to kill a baby in its mother's womb.

Andrew Brod

It's easy to opine about what's wrong, but if we're talking policy (and as on other topics, I think we should be), what do we do about those murdering women who get abortions? Roch's question is precisely on-topic.

James

A million abortions in the US last year. A million mothers who should be executed by lethal injection for the capital crime of premeditated murder. Finally, Republicans have a plan to control runaway healthcare costs. Kill more people.

michele

If abortion was outlawed, having one would be illegal. Here's what I tell all the current and would-be criminals I know. If you don't want to go to jail, stop knocking down the door trying to get in.

Billy Jones

Michele, Say I agree with you on abortion. But what about birth control-- should birth control also be outlawed? After all, that is what the linked article is about. Is birth control a form of abortion? And if birth control is outlawed just think of all the teenage mothers throwing babies in dumpsters. Is birth control the same as abortion?

Roch101

"If you don't want to go to jail, stop knocking down the door trying to get in." -- Michele

I'm unclear. Are you in favor of the death penalty for women who have abortions, as would happen were the Mississippi initiative you cheer to pass, or should the punishment only be jail?

sean

"No argument, no distraction, no deception will ever change the reality that it's wrong to kill a baby in its mother's womb."

michele, no one is saying it's "right" either. i know you have no room for another perspective on this issue, but if you can't cognitively accept that women are going to have abortions no matter what laws are in place -- and they have since the beginning of time -- then all you're doing is advocating for the ill health of women. how is that not a women's health issue?

glad that you love the babies not yet formed, i do too. too bad you don't have compassion for those in situations you can't understand.

Ishmael

Michele,
Thank you for asserting the need for effective birth control methods, sex education, and family planning assistance.
Because if you are going to criminalize abortions then there must be a plan to prevent pregnancies and it must be aggressive.
Here's where we have a parting of the ways. Some people are so addicted to their high horse that they shy away from any effort to resolve a problem in a reasonable manner - instead they use their religion and social bias to cram those sinners into the rail cars.
If you want (and you may already be doing this - if so, good on you) to make a difference stop preaching morality and start becoming more educated on the subject. Why are so many abortions necessary? Why has marriage/family life become unpopular in some circles? Why do we cling to our ignorance when it comes to these matters rather than actually help some people?

michele

Roch, I don't know what the penalty is in Mississippi for solicitation to commit aggravated murder of a child. If abortion is outlawed in Mississippi and women choose to kill their babies anyway, then they are subject to legal consequences, whatever those may be. Again, if you don't want to go to jail, don't knock down the door trying to get in.

Billy, if a birth control method results in the destruction of a fertilized embryo, that's the same as abortion, yes.

michele

Sean, you have no idea what kind of compassion I have for women who've had abortions or are contemplating abortion. I have compassion for the murderers, rapists and child molesters I know. That doesn't mean that I condone their behavior or think they shouldn't have consequences.

Ishmael, I haven't brought up religion or called anyone a sinner. This is a common sense issue. Killing babies is wrong. Everyone knows that.

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