Much angst at Blue NC over Larry Kissell's performance in office.

I can understand the frustration -- these folks feel they made a real contribution to Kissell's election, they believe they were promised something, and his healthcare vote is a big disappointment.

They should be giving him hell.

But there's also an un-DeMinty perspective. Politics is the art of the possible.

Would they rather have Robin Hayes in office? Because that, not a truly reliable progressive, is probably the realistic alternative to Kissell; south-central North Carolina is not a liberal hotspot.

The perfect is the enemy of the good, and the good is sometimes the enemy of the best-you're-going-to-get.

The anger from the left is part of the process. Maybe it will do some good.

Comments

[Jeffrey Sykes]

They could have this guy as their congressman. That guy will be hosting Rep. Joe Wilson at a Christmas party fundraiser next month in Hickory according to a card I received in the mail today.

[Gosh]

When you MapQuest BlueNC there's literally a shark underneath the photo. As in they've jumped it.

"Relevance" is already in the background as a distant memory.

[justcorbly]

Some of my fellow lefties take an annoyingly naive approach to politics, as in assuming that everyone they support is going to vote their way on every issue, even if it means political death. They're the same folks who failed to notice that the current president was easily the most moderate of the Edwards-Clinton-Obama trio. Promising to bring "change" and a new approach to politics is not tantamount to asserting a political position.

[bubba]

"They're the same folks who failed to notice that the current president was easily the most moderate of the Edwards-Clinton-Obama trio."

Is there a medical cure for libthink dementia?

Poor corbs is in dire need of such a thing. Someone please help him.

[winstongator]

I would imagine that many of the people posting on BlueNC did not vote for Kissell, James included. To some degree elected reps can be seen as serving two masters - their voters, and their contributors. Chapel Hill isn't in Kissell's district, so many of the contributors at the CH event would not also be voters. I would imagine the contributions were to the gen election, not a primary, so the choice was between Hayes and Kissell, which for even those now disappointed by Kissell should have been an easy choice. Expecting every person you support to support every position you have is unrealistic, and shrinks the tent. Granted, health care reform is one of the pillars of change and the utility of someone who supports none of your positions is zero. Larry should remember that most of those vocally opposing the bill did not vote for him, and did not support him, and it is dangerous to choose your opponents over your supporters.

[Steve Harrison]

Relevance is relative, Gosh. If you are openly critical of the behavior of one political party and you ignore that same behavior when a member of your own party does it, you become irrelevant to those who are trying to find their way closer to the truth.

JC, we are in an endless search for the perfect balance between pragmatism and idealism at BlueNC, and we probably never will find it. Larry was a somewhat unique candidate in that he wasn't steeped in politics like so many others, and his pursuit of support at places like BlueNC and Dailykos led many of us to believe he had some progressive notions bubbling up. That belief has been eroded quite a bit recently, but I still don't have a handle on what to expect from Larry in the future. And that's where the politics of the possible comes in.

[bubba]

"That belief has been eroded quite a bit recently, but I still don't have a handle on what to expect from Larry in the future. And that's where the politics of the possible comes in."

Expect him to distance himself from the insanity of political suicide some would like to impose upon him, unless he chooses not to run again.

He's probably smart enough to figure out what's happening, as was amply exemplified by Friday's election results.

[Steve Harrison]

Yeah, well, that political suicide thingie can go either way, Bob.

Kissell's district may be Conservative-leaning, but it's hurting badly economically as well. Extremely high unemployment, low median income, poor prospects for growth, etc. How many of those unemployed or seriously underemployed have health insurance, do ya' think? Considering how crippling medical debt is one of the main drivers of bankruptcy and foreclosure, Larry needs to think long and hard before trying to block something that could bring relief to tens of thousands of his constituents.

[bubba]

"How many of those unemployed or seriously underemployed have health insurance, do ya' think?"

How many of those unemployed or seriously under-employed think that fixing the Obama economy is the main priority over health care reform, do ya think?

Or do you suffer from the same problem that poor old corbs has: Deluding yourself with the notion that the lessons of last Tuesday in New Jersey and particularly in Virginia have no political, social, and economic implications for you and your kindred spirits?

[Jeffrey Sykes]

Guess they will need to get on McIntyre now too.

[Ed Cone]

How can fixing the economy be the major priority if the economy is not so bad?

[justcorbly]

Steve, what turns me off about contemporry conservatism, compared with the version of 40 yers ago, is its seeming insistence on valuing faith and belief over fact and reality, even to the extent of denying reality. (And, of course, the historically persistent hostilty toward the welfare of toher people, captured by today's "personal responsibilty" rant, which gives them permission to ignore their responsiblities for others.)

Lefties do a lot less of reality denial, but some do dabble in it. E.g., opposition to genetically altered food coipled with an insistent that all food, everywhere, should be organic. We can't feed seveal billion people with the output from boutique organic farms. Opposing the one viable way to feed those people is an exercise in believing in something that's contrary to reality.

I'll add that I'm as much in favor of finding our way closer to the truth as anyone, but I don't think a political party is the appropriate venue for that. Politics is about winning. You can't govern if you don't win.

[justcorbly]

>>...do you suffer from the same problem that poor old corbs has: Deluding yourself with the notion that the lessons of last Tuesday in New Jersey and particularly in Virginia have no political, social, and economic implications for you and your kindred spirits?

Riding his mighty steed, Bubba successfully constructs, charges and defeats another scarecrow.

It's easier to refute someone when you refute things they didn't say.

[bubba]

"It's easier to refute someone when you refute things they didn't say."

You're the expert at that, aren't you?

The astute reader will notice the deflection of this particular poster from contributing something of substance regarding the issue while accusing me of the very thing of which he complains.

It's just one more example of Standard Operating Procedure for him, and something to be expected when he has nothing of value to contribute.

[bubba]

I had the wrong link in the last post. This is the correct one.

The post was intended for corbs, but the link was intended for a separate post to the proprietor of this blog, in which I intended to point out one of his failings.

Come to think of it, the body of the last post applies to Ed too, doesn't it?

[justcorbly]

Two scarecrows do not make it right, Bubba. Nowhere have I said that "the lessons of last Tuesday in New Jersey and particularly in Virginia have no political, social, and economic implications.."

[bubba]

"Nowhere have I said that 'the lessons of last Tuesday in New Jersey and particularly in Virginia have no political, social, and economic implications..' "

I didn't say that you said it, corbs, old pal. You clearly implied it.

[eric]

The lesson of last Tuesday in Virginia is that when you run a conservative Democrat against an even more conservative Republican, the even more conservative Republican will sometimes win. The lesson of last Tuesday in Virginia is that when you run a moderate Wall Street Democrat against a moderate Wall Street Republican, the moderate Wall Street Republican will sometimes win. The lesson of last Tuesday in New York (which Bubba curiously omits) is that when you run a conservative Democrat against a reactionary nutcase who forces the moderate Republican out of the race, the conservative Democrat will win even though the district hasn't elected a Democrat in over a century.

Why anyone actually on the left (i.e. as distinct from the "10 degrees to the left of center in good times, 10 degrees to the right of center if it affects them personally" Democrats) should view any of those lessons as a matter of concern is a mystery.

[Jeffrey Sykes]

Eric: That's good analysis, but the left can't elect a president nor can they elect a congressman or a governor in states that don't border an ocean or belong to the Big-10.

[bubba]

"The lesson of last Tuesday in Virginia is that when you run a conservative Democrat against an even more conservative Republican, the even more conservative Republican will sometimes win. The lesson of last Tuesday in Virginia is that when you run a moderate Wall Street Democrat against a moderate Wall Street Republican, the moderate Wall Street Republican will sometimes win."

If I remember correctly, you're some kind of academic type, are you not?

If you are, you didn't learn your lesson very well, did you?

"The vaunted Obama realignment vanished. In 2009 in Virginia, the black vote was down by 20 percent, the under-30 vote by 50 percent. And as for independents, the ultimate prize of any realignment, they bolted. In both Virginia and New Jersey they’d gone narrowly for Obama in ’08. This year they went Republican by a staggering 33 points in Virginia and by an equally shocking 30 points in New Jersey.

White House apologists will say the Virginia Democrat was weak. If the difference between Bob McDonnell and Creigh Deeds was so great, how come when the same two men ran against each other statewide for attorney general four years ago the race was a virtual dead heat? Which made the ’09 McDonnell-Deeds rematch the closest you get in politics to a laboratory experiment for measuring the change in external conditions. Run them against each other again when it’s Obamaism in action and see what happens. What happened was a Republican landslide.

The Obama coattails of 2008 are gone. The expansion of the electorate, the excitement of the young, came in uniquely propitious Democratic circumstances and amid unparalleled enthusiasm for electing the first African-American president."

More:

"The lesson of last Tuesday in New York (which Bubba curiously omits) is that when you run a conservative Democrat against a reactionary nutcase who forces the moderate Republican out of the race, the conservative Democrat will win even though the district hasn't elected a Democrat in over a century."

Try broadening your reading list, Ace.

[eric]

Yes, Bubba, I am an academic type. I give you an F for reading comprehension and another F for political analysis.

Jeffrey, on the other hand, gets an A for both. I certainly agree that a candidate of the left -- the real left, not the one that delusional people like Bubba imagine Obama belongs to -- cannot get elected outside of a few places in this country. But the elections last Tuesday -- in which there were no leftists running in any of the closely-watched races -- have nothing to do with that.

[bubba]

"Yes, Bubba, I am an academic type. I give you an F for reading comprehension and another F for political analysis.'

In other words, you have nothing of substance to back up your nonsense. It's exactly what I would expect from someone who has no facts to offer in support his point of view.

What we're experiencing here is yet another example of the standard operating procedure employed by those who can't offer a cogent summary of his/her viewpoint. It's even more notable considering it comes from an academic, one who lists litigation experience on his CV.

[Eric Fink]

Yes, thank you for that fact-filled cogent argument, bubba. You are clearly a mastermind. Or a master-something.

[bubba]

Meanwhile, Kissell voted against health care "reform", as did Schuler and McIntyre. In addition, I find it interesting that Dennis Kucinich voted no.

Let's see if the they go after him, too.

[bubba]

"Yes, thank you for that fact-filled cogent argument, bubba."

Blah blah, woof woof.

Anything else of no particular value you feel the need to contribute, Ace?

[justcorbly]

>>I didn't say that you said it, corbs, old pal. You clearly implied it.

Right. I'm the master of implicit accusations.

You're either making stuff up, Bubba, or... well, think about it.

[justcorbly]

Eric's analysis is spot on. Bubba can't accept it because True Believers like Bubba see the world in absolutes ("you're either with us or against us") so if two conservatives won on Tuesday then it must mean conservatives will now sweep all before them.

The notion that the Democratic Party is a left-wing party is valid only if you see the GOP as a bastion of moderation and centrism. An honest-to-God leftist is a very rare thing in American politics. Today's GOP does not trace it lineage to people like Taft, Eisenhower, Nixon or, outside the realms of myth and leader worship, Reagan. Not even Goldwater, if we're honest. Instead, it's rooted in the traditions of George Wallace, Lee Atwater, Joesph McCarthy, Jesse Helms and the like who saw the Constitution as a document intended to preserve the privileges of those united by certain genetic and religious bonds.

[bubba]

"Eric's analysis is spot on."

Sorry, corbs. Eric's excuse for "analysis" was an pretty poor. So was yours.

Explain why results were substantially different in the 09 election between McDonnell and Deeds from the same matchup for AG in 05.

What outside factor unrelated to the disaster of an Obama administration and the accompanying Dem policies made the difference this year?

[Andrew Brod]

"Disaster of an Obama administration": Say what? It's hard to hear you from so deep inside the echo chamber.

[justcorbly]

Bubba, I barely offered any analysis other than saying turnout was key, which is self-evident.

And I don't know why Tuesday's results differed from that 2005 matchup, except to say that few voters get worked up about an AG race. People go to the polls to vote for the race at the top of the ticket, and vote for everything else while there. I'd bet a considerable sum of money that considerably less than 20 percent of the voters in any state can name their current AG. Such circumstances allow smaller but motivated groups to inflluence politics out of proportion to their number, a reality righties exploit with skill.

[bubba]

Whatever you say, corbs.

You just keep on thinking that way. Encourage all your kindred spirits to do the same.

[Dave Ribar]

Bob:

What was different in 2005?

The 2005 race featured a close race at the top of the ticket--Tim Kaine vs. Jerry Kilgore. Each candidate had wide name recognition; Kaine as Lt. Gov. and former Richmond mayor and Kilgore as the AG. Kaine trailed through much of the race but moved into a narrow lead about a month before election day. Kaine's coattails, however, were not strong enough to get Deeds elected (or the Dem's Lt. Gov. candidate). Deeds was a weak candidate for the Democrats in 2005 and an even weaker candidate in 2009.

[bubba]

The Viginia political "reality" according to Dave:

"Kaine wasn't the dynamic leader the Dems claimed, and had no real coattails; Deeds was a weak candidate both times; the declining political support for Obama, the Dems, and their policies and actions had nothing to do with last week's results; and who do you want to believe: Your lying eyes about the reality of the numbers and the obvious implications they show, or the Dems' always convenient excuses."

Sounds like several weak excuses to me.

Here's what Jennifer Rubin wrote about the actuality of last Tuesday's election in Virginia:

"Despite White House efforts to distance Obama from the results, there is an unmistakable message for Beltway Democrats. Mississippi governor Haley Barbour, who heads the Republican Governors' Association, agreed McDonnell was 'greatly assisted by what's going on in D.C.' While McDonnell talked 'about what's on people's minds--which is job creation,' Barbour observed, 'people don't understand why they have spent the last few months talking about health care [reform],' which will drive up costs and squeeze employers.

(Ed)Gillespie remarks on the shift since December 2008: 'The environment changed substantially in the course of those ten months, especially with independent voters, because of what was going on in Washington, D.C.' It is certainly the case, as David Wasserman of the Cook Political Report explains, that McDonnell's success is 'a reflection of a national environment.' A victory of this magnitude, he says, demonstrates not just a change in the electorate but a 'change in opinion.' After less than a year of Obama and a Democratic Congress, taxes and spending have particular resonance. Wasserman emphasizes, Voters are wary of too much government spending."

.....The results in Northern Virginia should alarm Democrats. This region had trended their way in recent years, reflecting growing anti-GOP sentiment in the Bush administration's final years. As Fairfax County Republican chairman Anthony Bedell explains, 'Northern Virginia is very Washington centric.' And it was there that voters eyed events in D.C. and embraced McDonnell's message of fiscal conservatism. McDonnell took Fairfax County (which George Allen lost by 65,000 votes and John McCain by 110,000) 51 to 49 percent and ran up even higher margins in Washington, D.C.'s farther flung suburbs.

The Virginia results confirm that Republicans are returning from the political wilderness. An effective candidate with the right message can rebuild a winning center-right coalition. The right message in the Obama era is firm opposition to the national Democratic party agenda.

[Bubba]

More, from Stuart Rothenberg:

(Think WaPo, corbs, Eric, several others, and quite possibly Dave as being members "not all assessments are equally correct" club discussed in the first paragraph.)

"Everyone and his brother has opinions about what happened on Tuesday, but not all assessments are equally correct, just as not all of the descriptions of the contests, while they were in progress, were equally on the mark."

Deeds soundly beat two Northern Virginia primary opponents, winning more than 45 percent in Fairfax and Arlington counties. Moreover, after his primary victory, he was widely hailed as the kind of Democrat who could keep the governorship in Democratic hands. Most mid-June polls showed the gubernatorial race close.

Again, he and his campaign had plenty of weaknesses and mistakes, but portraying him as some kind of inept buffoon who never really had a chance is rewriting history. And former Virginia Attorney General Bob McDonnell (R) ran an extraordinarily good campaign."

[Bubba]

Seems like the bad news just keeps on coming, doesn't it?